Logan Branch Development

[jifigz]

Sadly, you're right about the dollars usually winning.

I used to spend a significant amount of time around Manassas, VA, and boy, talk about depression from speed of development. My girlfriend at the time graduated before I did and took a teaching job down there and I was still in college at Clarion. I would drive down to see her and within a matter of two weeks time new plots of woodland and farm/ag fields had been converted to 7-Elevens and whatnot. It was the fastest and most horrible rate of development that I had ever witnessed. That area was just growing leaps and bounds.

I bet to have been a local and to have grown up around there when it was still rural and to see what it has become/is becoming could bring tears to your eyes.....unless you sold a chunk of land for mega money and moved somewhere else far from development.

 

[TimMurphy]

I used to spend a significant amount of time around Manassas, VA, and boy, talk about depression from speed of development. My girlfriend at the time graduated before I did and took a teaching job down there and I was still in college at Clarion. I would drive down to see her and within a matter of two weeks time new plots of woodland and farm/ag fields had been converted to 7-Elevens and whatnot. It was the fastest and most horrible rate of development that I had ever witnessed. That area was just growing leaps and bounds.

I bet to have been a local and to have grown up around there when it was still rural and to see what it has become/is becoming could bring tears to your eyes.....unless you sold a chunk of land for mega money and moved somewhere else far from development.

Dear jifigz,

...... to begin the process anew. There, I fixed your last sentence for you.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[afishinado]

Sadly, you're right about the dollars usually winning.

If the truth be told, the mega warehouse plan I posted about was defeated (at least for now) by many concerned citizens from a very high income residential area (Chester Springs, Chester County) banding together.

Lawyers, business leaders and professionals live in the area. Some of these lawyers took on the project pro bono, as well, a lot of money was raised to fight the project. As well I suspect "strings were pulled" by wealthy residents behind the scenes to quash this project.

So residents banded together with money and beat money in this case, again, at least for now.

I would venture a guess if the area was a lower income community, the results may not have been the same.

Social media is looked at as a bane of society at times, but the other side of the coin is it can be used as a great way to rally the troops for a just cause.

Either way......fight on!

 

[jifigz]

Dear jifigz,

...... to begin the process anew. There, I fixed your last sentence for you.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Mr Murphy,

Right you are!

 

[bdhoover77]

I used to spend a significant amount of time around Manassas, VA, and boy, talk about depression from speed of development. My girlfriend at the time graduated before I did and took a teaching job down there and I was still in college at Clarion. I would drive down to see her and within a matter of two weeks time new plots of woodland and farm/ag fields had been converted to 7-Elevens and whatnot. It was the fastest and most horrible rate of development that I had ever witnessed. That area was just growing leaps and bounds.

I bet to have been a local and to have grown up around there when it was still rural and to see what it has become/is becoming could bring tears to your eyes.....unless you sold a chunk of land for mega money and moved somewhere else far from development.

It’s the same everywhere. I was speaking to my parents last week and they told me that the golf course I grew up playing in NE Ohio is closing and the land will be turned into a housing development. I was thinking about almost all the public courses I grew up playing and learning the game…virtually every one has been turned into housing. It‘s understandable but still really depressing to see the green spaces I used to know and love bulldozed under in the name of suburban spawl.

 

[wildtrout2]

It’s the same everywhere. I was speaking to my parents last week and they told me that the golf course I grew up playing in NE Ohio is closing and the land will be turned into a housing development. I was thinking about almost all the public courses I grew up playing and learning the game…virtually every one has been turned into housing. It‘s understandable but still really depressing to see the green spaces I used to know and love bulldozed under in the name of suburban spawl.

And, I don't see this ever changing. It really is depressing to watch. I wouldn't want to be a teenager growing up in these times. The future looks bleak.

I was sooo blessed to grow up in the 70's and 80's. I thank the Lord every day for that.

 

[jifigz]

It’s the same everywhere. I was speaking to my parents last week and they told me that the golf course I grew up playing in NE Ohio is closing and the land will be turned into a housing development. I was thinking about almost all the public courses I grew up playing and learning the game…virtually every one has been turned into housing. It‘s understandable but still really depressing to see the green spaces I used to know and love bulldozed under in the name of suburban spawl.

Well, just to be clear, golf courses are barely better than a development as far as being natural. They do not offer lots of pavement and impervious surfaces, but otherwise highly groomed, sprayed, and extremely short-clipped grass isn't doing a whole lot for the environment either other than attracting unwanted Canada Geese to the water traps.

Large, vast swaths of monoculture grass, especially grass clipped to 1/4 high, are a pretty lousy environment for everything except golfers.

 

[bdhoover77]

Well, just to be clear, golf courses are barely better than a development as far as being natural. They do not offer lots of pavement and impervious surfaces, but otherwise highly groomed, sprayed, and extremely short-clipped grass isn't doing a whole lot for the environment either other than attracting unwanted Canada Geese to the water traps.

Large, vast swaths of monoculture grass, especially grass clipped to 1/4 high, are a pretty lousy environment for everything except golfers.

American golf is like that. But I prefer the UK where less grooming and chemical applications are used.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

American golf is like that. But I prefer the UK where less grooming and chemical applications are used.

Any new golf courses should include full public fishing access to all water traps. Fishing at our local golf course (in MD) was tacitly permitted by the former owners, until the county bought it from them. Those ponds held some big LMB and we were happy to pick up beer cans and snack bags left by the golfers.

 

[troutbert]

Well, just to be clear, golf courses are barely better than a development as far as being natural. They do not offer lots of pavement and impervious surfaces, but otherwise highly groomed, sprayed, and extremely short-clipped grass isn't doing a whole lot for the environment either other than attracting unwanted Canada Geese to the water traps.

Large, vast swaths of monoculture grass, especially grass clipped to 1/4 high, are a pretty lousy environment for everything except golfers.

There is a great potential for golf courses to be managed better regarding stream health. Particularly for new courses, where that could be designed in from the beginning. But even on existing courses, there are many "opportunities for improvement."

Students study golf course design and maintenance in college courses. Is stream conservation as part of golf course design and management included in their classes, textbooks, etc. Does anyone know?

 

[jifigz]

There is a great potential for golf courses to be managed better regarding stream health. Particularly for new courses, where that could be designed in from the beginning. But even on existing courses, there are many "opportunities for improvement."

Students study golf course design and maintenance in college courses. Is stream conservation as part of golf course design and management included in their classes, textbooks, etc. Does anyone know?

And I am not specifically referring to stream health. Golf courses suck for practically all wildlife. There is no, or little, tall grass for bedding birds. There is no tall grass for bedding deer. There is little to no weeds/wildflowers for pollinators, butterflies, etc etc. There is little wild vegetation that offers seeds and berries and such. It is all chopped own, manicured crap. The only two creatures that really benefit are Canada Geese and humans.

Canada Geese are very much at home raising chicks in a grass environment with ponds where they can poop all over everything.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Canada Geese are very much at home raising chicks in a grass environment with ponds where they can poop all over everything.

Canada geese have become ubiquitous cows with wings and thrive anywhere representative of their home tundra. If allowed, anyone with a good air rifle, could really contribute some protein to their local food banks.
Also, it's no doubt that golf courses (and any other grass-covered athletic parks) are a non-diverse biological desert in terms of invasive plants, broad-spectrum herbicides/pesticides, etc.

 

[jifigz]

Canada geese have become ubiquitous cows with wings and thrive anywhere representative of their home tundra. If allowed, anyone with a good air rifle, could really contribute some protein to their local food banks.
Also, it's no doubt that golf courses (and any other grass-covered athletic parks) are a non-diverse biological desert in terms of invasive plants, broad-spectrum herbicides/pesticides, etc.

Air rifles and Canada geese probably aren't the best combination to be effective...I have some experience gunning down Canadas and they're pretty tough.

Okay, back to Logan Branch....

 

[Mike]

There is a great potential for golf courses to be managed better regarding stream health. Particularly for new courses, where that could be designed in from the beginning. But even on existing courses, there are many "opportunities for improvement."

Students study golf course design and maintenance in college courses. Is stream conservation as part of golf course design and management included in their classes, textbooks, etc. Does anyone know?

What you are describing for golf courses has already been created and applied. There’s something akin to a list of green standards/certification process and the example that I read about a few yrs ago included riparian area vegetation growth as part of the course’s commitment. The before and after pics were pretty impressive. I suspect you can find the standards or certification requirements with a quick search. Sorry for the lack of detail, but I read about it only once and, as I said, it was a few yrs ago. Sounded good to me at the time though.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Air rifles and Canada geese probably aren't the best combination to be effective...I have some experience gunning down Canadas and they're pretty tough.

Okay, back to Logan Branch....

I wasn't referring to actual ethical hunting. Even a shaky-handed old guy like I could peg one standing on the second green from ~20' away. (Sorry, back to Logan Branch. )

 

[caddisflyer]

Logan Branch had some big fish but i often got the impression a lot of them were stocked. This was 30 years ago at least.

 

[troutbert]

What you are describing for golf courses has already been created and applied. There’s something akin to a list of green standards/certification process and the example that I read about a few yrs ago included riparian area vegetation growth as part of the course’s commitment. The before and after pics were pretty impressive. I suspect you can find the standards or certification requirements with a quick search. Sorry for the lack of detail, but I read about it only once and, as I said, it was a few yrs ago. Sounded good to me at the time though.

Do you know of any golf courses in PA where these conservation practices have been applied?

 

[Mike]

Do you know of any golf courses in PA where these conservation practices have been applied?

It’s the the Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary Program for Golf. Over 2,000 golf courses have been certified by Audubon. Two that I know of are in the Lehigh Valley..

ACSP for Golf - Audubon International

ACSP for Golf About the ACSP for Golf Program The Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary Program for Golf is an award winning education and certification program that helps golf courses protect our environment and preserve the natural heritage of the game of golf. By helping people enhance the valuable...

auduboninternational.org

As for industrial properties, these can be designed with green features such as “green” (vegetated) roof tops and little mowing, with wild flower meadows replacing most lawns. See the description of Air Products Incorporated Global headquarters near Trexlertown. I also saw it featured in a major article about such campuses nationwide.

 

[Mike]

Logan Branch had some big fish but i often got the impression a lot of them were stocked. This was 30 years ago at least.

Having sampled the stream for surveys and demonstration purposes, that was never my impression. Yes, a few were undoubtedly stocked, but at the same rate as many other streams. However, Logan Branch’s big BT occurred in much higher quantity throughout the year, year after year, than stocking would have produced and they successfully and consistently weathered the onslaught of thousands of angling trips (angler counts done throughout season) from opening day through summer, with many of the summer angler trips specifically designed to target the stream’s big browns. These were “educated” fish with full stomachs (huge sculpin forage population), and taking a page from abundant walleye populations with huge forage bases of alewife (Blue Marsh Res), they are tough to catch.

Logan Branch’s features that produced large numbers of big BT were mostly excellent flows of mostly ideal temp for fast fish growth, large forage base for all sizes of fish, very good habitat in abundance to produce large fish = overhead cover, deep runs (deep due to good flows), moderately deep pools with good water velocities (not dead/sluggish water), low width to depth ratio.

 

[salmo]

I graduated in 1989 and the last time I was back was probably 10 years ago. I originally had faith that with all those smart people living in an area practically on a world class trout stream that BMP's and smart planning would save this stream for future generations. I couldn't believe the urban sprawl that had enveloped the area. Going up for the Delaware game and I am sure I will be shocked again. I almost don't want to go because it will be so depressing. But at least the Lions will win!

Does anyone know if they need any variances for the approval? Can someone get me the application? I’d like to review it. Are any groups going to the hearing ?