LJRA To Discuss Upper Bells Gap Run Brown Trout Removal

[silverfox]

Is there blow back? I'm just asking questions and pointing out the obvious from a middle of the road standpoint. Frank seems to be the only one in this post truly against it and I respect his point of view as well. Dude's passionate about his trout fishing and streams he enjoys fishing in particular. I'm just being rationale here. But get'r done. I'll be the guy here 5 years down the road saying I told ya so ;-)

I don’t think Frank is the only one. He was the first and most vocal.

If we haven’t been abducted by aliens in 5 years. I’ll eat crow. Or a bunch of brown trout from Bells Gap between now and then.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Is there blow back? I'm just asking questions and pointing out the obvious from a middle of the road standpoint. Frank seems to be the only one in this post truly against it and I respect his point of view as well. Dude's passionate about his trout fishing and streams he enjoys fishing in particular. I'm just being rationale here. But get'r done. I'll be the guy here 5 years down the road saying I told ya so ;-)

Unless it works.
Then what will you say?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

IMO, the real question is if it works, then what should we be asking?

That is the question it seems most people fear.

 

[Zak]

If we haven’t been abducted by aliens in 5 years. I’ll eat crow. Or a bunch of brown trout from Bells Gap between now and then.

That's a deal brother!

 

[Zak]

Then what will you say?

Ummmm 'I'm surprised it worked' would that suffice?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I don’t think Frank is the only one. He was the first and most vocal.

If we haven’t been abducted by aliens in 5 years. I’ll eat crow. Or a bunch of brown trout from Bells Gap between now and then.

Maybe aliens can abduct the brown trout. That seems like it might be a highly effective restorative measure.

 

[Zak]

IMO, the real question is if it works, then what should we be asking?

That is the question it seems most people fear.

That is very accurate and is where the battle lines will get drawn I'm sure. Abortion right 2.0

 

[rrt]

Well, Zak, I'm 73, so I might be on the other side of the dirt and won't hear you!

 

[nymphingmaniac]

before this gets closed. Here is the study Frank eluded to, it was conducted by PSU biologists.

Few hatchery brook trout genes present in Pennsylvania watershed wild fish

Despite many decades of annual brook trout stocking in one northcentral Pennsylvania watershed, the wild brook trout populations show few genes from hatchery fish, according to researchers who genotyped about 2,000 brook trout in Loyalsock Creek watershed, a 500-square-mile drainage in Lycoming...

www.eurekalert.org

wasn't published in the highest impact journal, but it was peer reviewed, presumably by fisheries biologists.

people might not like it because it concludes, at least on that water, stocking is not significantly affecting BT genetics. However, they did detect some genes from stocked strains

 

[nymphingmaniac]

and one of the authors publishes a lot on topics of interest to this board

Tyler Wagner

US Geological Survey, Pennsylvania State University - Cited by 3,895 - Aquatic ecology - fisheries - limnology - hierarchical modeling - CRU Program

scholar.google.com

 

[silverfox]

before this gets closed. Here is the study Frank eluded to, it was conducted by PSU biologists.

Few hatchery brook trout genes present in Pennsylvania watershed wild fish

Despite many decades of annual brook trout stocking in one northcentral Pennsylvania watershed, the wild brook trout populations show few genes from hatchery fish, according to researchers who genotyped about 2,000 brook trout in Loyalsock Creek watershed, a 500-square-mile drainage in Lycoming...

www.eurekalert.org

wasn't published in the highest impact journal, but it was peer reviewed, presumably by fisheries biologists.

people might not like it because it concludes, at least on that water, stocking is not significantly affecting BT genetics. However, they did detect some genes from stocked strains

So the theory that all the brook trout in PA are from hatcheries isn’t true. One way to look at it.

 

[falcon]

The PA Boat Fish Commission should recruit some of the 100 fish a day gunslingers to eradicate the BrownTrout as they missed their calling 175 years ago running point for the Lewis and Clark expedition. Have Mepps will.travel.

 

[silverfox]

The PA Boat Fish Commission should recruit some of the 100 fish a day gunslingers to eradicate the BrownTrout as they missed their calling 175 years ago running point for the Lewis and Clark expedition. Have Mepps will.travel.

Not a bad idea.

 

[Zak]

Well, Zak, I'm 73, so I might be on the other side of the dirt and won't hear you!

Oh c'mon!!! I'm only asking for 5 years rrt. I have confidence in you.

 

[Zak]

The PA Boat Fish Commission should recruit some of the 100 fish a day gunslingers to eradicate the BrownTrout as they missed their calling 175 years ago running point for the Lewis and Clark expedition. Have Mepps will.travel.

If they pay me per trout I'll erratic the rest of the browns on that creek. They'll have to raise the creel limit for me though haha.

 

[troutbert]

So the theory that all the brook trout in PA are from hatcheries isn’t true. One way to look at it.

Correct. That "theory" is bunk.

A similar study was done on NJ brook trout and the results were very similar.

That "theory" was never based on historical or scientific evidence, so is not really a theory.

It was just propaganda concocted by people who feared and opposed any special efforts being made to benefit brook trout populations, because they feared that was a threat to brown trout.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

So the theory that all the brook trout in PA are from hatcheries isn’t true. One way to look at it.

that is THE correct way to look at it. was this in dispute? The PCA in figure 2 is striking and makes a strong argument.

from abstract "Even with reoccurring stocking at most sites, over 93% of wild-caught individuals probabilistically assigned to wild origin, and only 5.6% of wild-caught fish assigned to introgressed. "

seems like most BT are wild in this watershed. It is impressive they sampled 30 sites and many trout. I suspect this stream is not unique and the observations will be broadly applicable.

"However, a cautious approach to stocking may still be warranted, as the poten- tial effects of stocking on wild population fitness and the mechanisms limiting introgression are not known."

surprised this made the abstract, as it is opinion. One I whole heartedly agree with, but this does not belong in an abstract of a scientific paper.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

that is THE correct way to look at it. was this in dispute? The PCA in figure 2 is striking and makes a strong argument.

from abstract "Even with reoccurring stocking at most sites, over 93% of wild-caught individuals probabilistically assigned to wild origin, and only 5.6% of wild-caught fish assigned to introgressed. "

seems like most BT are wild in this watershed. It is impressive they sampled 30 sites and many trout. I suspect this stream is not unique and the observations will be broadly applicable.

"However, a cautious approach to stocking may still be warranted, as the poten- tial effects of stocking on wild population fitness and the mechanisms limiting introgression are not known."

surprised this made the abstract, as it is opinion. One I whole heartedly agree with, but this does not belong in an abstract of a scientific paper.

Thank you for these series of posts.
Good stuff!

 

[troutbert]

So the theory that all the brook trout in PA are from hatcheries isn’t true. One way to look at it.

BTW, I first came across this "theory" around the late 1980s, in an outdoor magazine that was published somewhere in NCPA. He didn't offer any evidence to support it.

I don't know if he originated that story or not. It's likely that several people invented that same story independently, because of the same motivations.

 

[silverfox]

BTW, I first came across this "theory" around the late 1980s, in an outdoor magazine that was published somewhere in NCPA. He didn't offer any evidence to support it.

I don't know if he originated that story or not. It's likely that several people invented that same story independently, because of the same motivations.

Interesting. I’ve always wondered where that came from. Having seen isolated populations in extremely polluted systems, that notion never made much sense to me.