LJRA To Discuss Upper Bells Gap Run Brown Trout Removal

[silverfox]

So how do we rationalize 2 of 6 miles as taking out the majority of the wild browns? Personally, I have no attachment to this creek. Even limited info on it aside from what I'm learning here. I could support this effort as a way of learning something new. I just would like to see a bit of more complete effort so we can actually learn something other than removing browns on 33% of an established population stream probably doesn't work. I'm fairly sure we already know that before we even try.

If you have no attachement then why do you care? There's absolutely no harm in trying. Again, if we all have to be 100% certain of success and the only thing we ever attempt to try are things we get 100% buy in from every beating heart in the state from, then nothing will ever happen. Again, that's probably exactly what some folks would like to see happen.

 

[troutbert]

So how do we rationalize 2 of 6 miles as taking out the majority of the wild browns? Personally, I have no attachment to this creek. Even limited info on it aside from what I'm learning here. I could support this effort as a way of learning something new. I just would like to see a bit of more complete effort so we can actually learn something other than removing browns on 33% of an established population stream probably doesn't work. I'm fairly sure we already know that before we even try.

Maybe the surveys showed that the great majority of the browns were found in the lower 2 miles.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Spruce Creek has a 1/2 mile section of stream that is mostly braided into two or more channels owned by Penn State University and open to the public, so for the record, Spruce Creek is not an "otherwise completely pay-to-play stream."

I don't recall reading anywhere that the "Voluntary Wild Trout & Enhanced Waters" money couldn't be used to aid wild brown trout. Seems to me wild brown trout are wild trout and fit the purpose of the fund perfectly.

Again, I see no misappropriation of funds. Do you think our legal system would see a misappropriation of funds? If you and Fish Sticks think it is a misappropriation of funds, why don't you get the National Fish Coalition to sue the PFBC? The only attorney around who would take that case for you is one who just wants your money. The lawsuit would go nowhere.

I never said it was misappropriation on legal grounds it’s misappropriation based on stated organizational deliverables. PA fish and boat has like 75% of their brook trout deliverables in the early 2000’s still delinquent. PFBC is mis representing itself to the public in documents like the TMP and wild life action plan, unfortunately its not something you can sue them for yet.

Waste fraud and abuse might be more fitting.

Stocking streams that are already class A, lying to the public about the harms of invasive brown trout, and misinforming many anglers who ask about the harm of their stocking practice fits the exact definition. PSU basically pointed out their wasting money and over committed and broke in 2017 and they didn’t follow their advice.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Maybe the surveys showed that the great majority of the browns were found in the lower 2 miles.

Yea isnt there a waterfall with no browns above ?

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

I never said it was misappropriation on legal grounds it’s misappropriation based on stated organizational deliverables. PA fish and boat has like 75% of their brook trout deliverables in the early 2000’s still delinquent. PFBC is mis representing itself to the public in documents like the TMP and wild life action plan, unfortunately its not something you can sue them for yet.

Waste fraud and abuse might be more fitting.

Stocking streams that are already class A, lying to the public about the harms of invasive brown trout, and misinforming many anglers who ask about the harm of their stocking practice fits the exact definition. PSU basically pointed out their wasting money and over committed and broke in 2017 and they didn’t follow their advice.

Of course not. As soon as I show you're wrong you change what you mean.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Of course not. As soon as I show you're wrong you change what you mean.

No I have not changed what I mean. Its still a misappropriation of funds based on PA fish and boats self stated priorities but just pointing out there is waste fraud and abuse at PFBC

 

[Fish Sticks]

Your straw man arguments and what about-isms are all to cover up avoid that you can’t let brook trout have anything in this state if you lose one fishable trout in any scenario. Instead of pretending you are interested in conservation just it. You don’t care about wild native brook trout. You like catching them but don’t really care about their conservation status. More trout no matter what in your book is always a better thing no matter the cost to anything else. Lets just be honest here. Your an at all costs fan of unlimited trout.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Your straw man arguments and what about-isms are all to cover up avoid that you can’t let brook trout have anything in this state if you lose one fishable trout in any scenario. Instead of pretending you are interested in conservation just it. You don’t care about wild native brook trout. You like catching them but don’t really care about their conservation status. More trout no matter what in your book is always a better thing no matter the cost to anything else. Lets just be honest here. Your an at all costs fan of unlimited trout.

And there is the cold hard truth.

Here is a question kind of like the one Frank asked earlier.

If this project was to work and browns were reduced to the point brook trout thrived and. became the only species of trout above the dam, would you support that ?

 

[silverfox]

And there is the cold hard truth.

Here is a question kind of like the one Frank asked earlier.

If this project was to work and browns were reduced to the point brook trout thrived and. became the only species of trout above the dam, would you support that ?

And is it an honest answer or just to not look like a total zealot.

 

[Fish Sticks]

My whole thing is if it doesn’t work you get back the dime a dozen invasive browns dominating planet and destroying native species that you hold so dear. Whats to lose in trying removal if your motive isn’t just protecting an infinite number of invasive brown trout honey holes in this state?

 

[rrt]

Glad to see we are, mostly, back on the topic.

Silverfox, where did you find out that they found some huge browns in the Bellwood reservoir when it was previously drained? I recall hearing and being surprised to hear that only four fish, total, were taken from the drained reservoir, though I can't tell you who told me that. I remember hearing that quite a few guys were ready to tote trout to the LJR but that they were basically not needed.

Anyhow, I don't know what was said at last night's meeting. I am one who hopes the LJRA and Bill don't give up on the project. I hope that it might just work. Wouldn't that be something!

(If piscicides were used, I think the stream would be restocked by brookies coming down from the little tribs where there are no brown trout. But, I don't think that is on the table.)

 

[silverfox]

Glad to see we are, mostly, back on the topic.

Silverfox, where did you find out that they found some huge browns in the Bellwood reservoir when it was previously drained? I recall hearing and being surprised to hear that only four fish, total, were taken from the drained reservoir, though I can't tell you who told me that. I remember hearing that quite a few guys were ready to tote trout to the LJR but that they were basically not needed.

Anyhow, I don't know what was said at last night's meeting. I am one who hopes the LJRA and Bill don't give up on the project. I hope that it might just work. Wouldn't that be something!

(If piscicides were used, I think the stream would be restocked by brookies coming down from the little tribs where there are no brown trout. But, I don't think that is on the table.)

I just looked through my email and couldn't find it, but I had a photo of a huge brown from the first drawdown and I thought it was 30". Might have been mid/upper 20's though. I don't recall who sent it to me, but I think Bill took the picture. I don't know that I knew how many they caught either, but, like you, I recall it being only a few.

I think the manual removal route is good here. LJRA has done a lot for the browns and I know those folks all love their brown trout. So relocating them makes sense. If folks are willing to put in the effort, I don't see what the problem would be.

 

[troutbert]

If it's true that the trout population overall, browns and brookies, has declined, one possible cause might be the draining of the reservoir. Trout move back and forth between reservoirs and streams.

 

[Fish Sticks]

If it's true that the trout population overall, browns and brookies, has declined, one possible cause might be the draining of the reservoir. Trout move back and forth between reservoirs and streams.

Maybe true but someone said there was a waterfall with brookies only above so that would not likely effect them. As for the brookies below it when they lowered last time sounds like only browns which would make sense since brown trout displace brook trout from prime habitat and since they block movement through dispersal corridors to an extent.

I doubt the brook trout would use the lake much if browns up to mid 20’s are in there

 

[Zak]

If you have no attachement then why do you care?

Well I care about poor efforts because it doesn't make any sense. In reality at the end of the day I'm not going to lose any sleep over whatever they do. It just seems like it's not worth getting excited over even if you're for it because this scenario isn't likely to bear much fruit. I hope they prove me wrong LOL

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

Your straw man arguments and what about-isms are all to cover up avoid that you can’t let brook trout have anything in this state if you lose one fishable trout in any scenario. Instead of pretending you are interested in conservation just it. You don’t care about wild native brook trout. You like catching them but don’t really care about their conservation status. More trout no matter what in your book is always a better thing no matter the cost to anything else. Lets just be honest here. Your an at all costs fan of unlimited trout.

So now that I proved you wrong on the misappropriation of funds by the PFBC the personal attacks start. Nice.

 

[silverfox]

Well I care about poor efforts because it doesn't make any sense. In reality at the end of the day I'm not going to lose any sleep over whatever they do. It just seems like it's not worth getting excited over even if you're for it because this scenario isn't likely to bear much fruit. I hope they prove me wrong LOL

If it’s not your effort, why does it matter? The precious trout are taking truck rides with volunteers for crying out loud.

I don’t know why there’s such blowback. I was happy to hear it was back on and I go to FB and the first thing I see is a bunch of alarmism and naysayers claiming doom and gloom.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So now that I proved you wrong on the misappropriation of funds by the PFBC the personal attacks start. Nice.

You proved nothing the state action plan still tells the general public PA fish and boat is removing some fraction of brown trout while their making habitat for them in real life.

And its not a personal attack to point out that your skirting the question I asked.

If it’s going to fail and brown trout will just comeback the only reason someone would be opposed to this project would be the fear it would actually do what it sets out to do.

 

[silverfox]

If it’s going to fail and brown trout will just comeback the only reason someone would be opposed to this project would be the fear it would actually do what it sets out to do.

It’s not even like tax dollars or LJRA dues are being used. If it fails, a few people “wasted” their weekend taking trout on truck rides. Oh the humanity.

 

[Zak]

I don’t know why there’s such blowback. I was happy to hear it was back on and I go to FB and the first thing I see is a bunch of alarmism and naysayers claiming doom and gloom.

Is there blow back? I'm just asking questions and pointing out the obvious from a middle of the road standpoint. Frank seems to be the only one in this post truly against it and I respect his point of view as well. Dude's passionate about his trout fishing and streams he enjoys fishing in particular. I'm just being rationale here. But get'r done. I'll be the guy here 5 years down the road saying I told ya so ;-)