LJRA To Discuss Upper Bells Gap Run Brown Trout Removal

The stream improvement work done on Spruce Creek aided wild brown trout. I see no misappropriation of funds there.
Using funds volunteered by anglers for habitat improvement to install mud sills on 800 feet of public access on an otherwise completely pay-to-play stream that has been abused for decades by those exploiting the resource for money. That's not a misappropriation of funds?
 
So if the browns aren't being removed what's really the point. They won't keep it up forever.
 
I'm actually surprised this is legal without a permit and maybe the fishing boat commission still has to weigh in on it. There is no way I would personally allow an electric fishing effort during spawning season for Pennsylvania wild trout regardless of the species. Nobody's really addressing that issue in this post.
It's not legal without a permit.

The original plan was to do the electrofishing November 19th, 2014. Nov. 19 would be a good date because that late brook trout spawning would be over. The great majority of brook trout spawning is in October.
 
There's a lot to unpack here.
My statement of 100% failure is absolutely a very serious post. Any biologist is going to tell you if you don't remove almost all of the brown trout they're going to come back and quickly.
That's not true. Read FS's post.
And unless they shock everything multiple times day after day after day you're not going to catch all the Browns in that 2 mi section anyhow and they're just going to come back. The PA fishing boat commission shocks the same 300 yard stretch of stream two days in a row and I could be corrected but I still don't think they catch all the fish in that stretch during those two days in most cases.
Multiple pass blocknet will get the vast majority of them. Crank the battery knowing you're going to kill a lot of smaller fish and there won't be many browns left.
I know some in here don't like Browns and that's fine, that's your opinion and I respect it.
This has nothing to do with liking brown trout. This is missing the point entirely.
But you have to agree that this attempt isn't going to work. It might feel good but it's a poor effort at best.
No, I don't have to agree, because there is a strong chance it will work. This is done elsewhere quite a bit.
And to do it during Prime spawning season is even more irresponsible when your whole effort is to restore the very fish you are stressing during their most critical time of the year. This all just seems like fugazi to me.
I believe that post was an old post from 2014. I don't think the date/time has been decided yet.
I'm actually surprised this is legal without a permit and maybe the fishing boat commission still has to weigh in on it. There is no way I would personally allow an electric fishing effort during spawning season for Pennsylvania wild trout regardless of the species. Nobody's really addressing that issue in this post.
They'll get a permit to do it.
 
The stream improvement work done on Spruce Creek aided wild brown trout. I see no misappropriation of funds there.
The brook trout is listed in the state wild life action plan as a species of “greatest conservation need” and has brown trout listed as largest biological threat with “strategy-removal” and you see no misuse of what little they don’t spend on producing invasive hatchery trout on a class A wild invasive brown trout stream that is mostly pay for play besides the reach pfbc “improved”?????
 
Absolutely none of that changes the fact that they applied the reg to all species. Other states have regs that differentiate species. Most of them in fact. That's been my issue w/ the length reg as it applies to brook trout. I've never argued the positive impact its had. Only that it can't be considered a "brook trout regulation" because it's applied to all species.
As I said on Facebook before I deleted my comments, "semantics."
 
Thanks for taking the time to respond to each section. I just don't see how two out of six miles is going to make any sort of difference and reading this entire thread doesn't show me anywhere that it will. I will admit to skimming some of the very longer posts with articles attached so it's possible I missed a very defined example of how this would work but I don't see it any different than when a fish kill happens on a short section of stream and it repopulates seemingly overnight. If you're not taking out the majority of the brown trout it seems like simple math that they're just going to reoccupy the favorable habitat is fast as you can snap your fingers. Brook trout certainly aren't going to stop brown trout from reoccupying favorable habitat.
 
As I said on Facebook before I deleted my comments, "semantics."
It's not though. Treating all species the same implies that they all have the same value, or that they're all in the same boat. They're not. One is in the wildlife action plan, the bay agreement, has its own (abandoned) action plan, and is the only native stream dwelling salmonid in the state.

They've tried so hard to use blanket regs to avoid treating one species differently than the others that they lost any conservation messaging via regs. Now ironically they've abandoned that to protect brown trout in 13 streams.
 
Thanks for taking the time to respond to each section. I just don't see how two out of six miles is going to make any sort of difference and reading this entire thread doesn't show me anywhere that it will. I will admit to skimming some of the very longer posts with articles attached so it's possible I missed a very defined example of how this would work but I don't see it any different than when a fish kill happens on a short section of stream and it repopulates seemingly overnight. If you're not taking out the majority of the brown trout it seems like simple math that they're just going to reoccupy the favorable habitat is fast as you can snap your fingers. Brook trout certainly aren't going to stop brown trout from reoccupying favorable habitat.
To summarize the one you might have missed, some researchers found that removing the lion's share of BT from a ST stream still resulted in the ST population rebounding to the point that they overtook the BT. They hypothesized that it is the same effect that allows an invasive species to gain the upper hand.

FS also pointed out that in the Savage river in MD there is a tiny population of browns that has never successfully expanded beyond a few year classes of a few dozen fish in a very isolated section of the watershed. Theoretically because they're severely outnumbered there.
 
As I said on Facebook before I deleted my comments, "semantics."
Nope not at all because the end result of one is the public has no idea brook trout have a higher conservation value and that efforts like the one that started this thread need to be supported thats the difference. There is no doubt you are here arguing against .000000000001%(made up number)of PA stream miles being actually managed for brown trout because of PFBC’s terrible track record on brook trout, communicated value system, and social conditioning as a child by anglers influenced by what they chose to value as well. The statement that it is semantics is tragically ironic because when we were all little kids riding bikes with fishing poles messaging that native brook trout are important fish and to be sought after may have prevented this very silly argument about doing so little for wild native brook trout in this big state full of invasive species.
 
The brook trout is listed in the state wild life action plan as a species of “greatest conservation need” and has brown trout listed as largest biological threat with “strategy-removal” and you see no misuse of what little they don’t spend on producing invasive hatchery trout on a class A wild invasive brown trout stream that is mostly pay for play besides the reach pfbc “improved”?????
Since when is the "Wild Trout & Enhanced Waters" money earmarked for native brook trout? Everything I ever read about it is that it was to be used for wild trout. It's not a "Native Brook Trout & Enhanced Waters" fund. Seems to me those wild brown trout on Spruce Creek are wild trout. There's no misappropriation of funds there.
 
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Semantics
 
It's not though. Treating all species the same implies that they all have the same value, or that they're all in the same boat. They're not. One is in the wildlife action plan, the bay agreement, has its own (abandoned) action plan, and is the only native stream dwelling salmonid in the state.

They've tried so hard to use blanket regs to avoid treating one species differently than the others that they lost any conservation messaging via regs. Now ironically they've abandoned that to protect brown trout in 13 streams.
I applaud the protection the PFBC is giving wild brown trout in Class A streams that are stocked. Forward thinking...great move!
 
so you have a native trout that by fish and boats own words is of “greatest conservation need” but they spent the money on its largest biological threat somewhere else. Brown trout are not identified as needing help in the wild life action plan. They are not following and misusing conservation funds based on their own directive. They write the “action” plan.
 
Since when is the "Wild Trout & Enhanced Waters" money earmarked for native brook trout? Everything I ever read about it is that it was to be used for wild trout. It's not a "Native Brook Trout & Enhanced Waters" fund. Seems to me those wild brown trout on Spruce Creek are wild trout. There's no misappropriation of funds there.
I would've put the ratio of Donny Beaver mutants to wild brown trout at about 20:1 in the cavern stretch. Theoretically, the improvements will benefit the whole stream right? Who has exclusive access to the whole stream? Donny Beaver (and Harpster). So they improved habitat in 800ft of publicly held water that will benefit trout that Donny/Harpsters charge good money to fish for. Great use of public funds.
 
I applaud the protection the PFBC is giving wild brown trout in Class A streams that are stocked. Forward thinking...great move!
another example that PFBC does not care about brook trout. They could have made it rainbow harvest only. That would have protected brook trout in Penns Creek that are showing up.
 
I applaud the protection the PFBC is giving wild brown trout in Class A streams that are stocked. Forward thinking...great move!
The online comments and general attitude toward brook trout in PA is proof positive PFBC missed the mark on protecting the state fish.
 
Using funds volunteered by anglers for habitat improvement to install mud sills on 800 feet of public access on an otherwise completely pay-to-play stream that has been abused for decades by those exploiting the resource for money. That's not a misappropriation of funds?
Spruce Creek has a 1/2 mile section of stream that is mostly braided into two or more channels owned by Penn State University and open to the public, so for the record, Spruce Creek is not an "otherwise completely pay-to-play stream."

I don't recall reading anywhere that the "Voluntary Wild Trout & Enhanced Waters" money couldn't be used to aid wild brown trout. Seems to me wild brown trout are wild trout and fit the purpose of the fund perfectly.

Again, I see no misappropriation of funds. Do you think our legal system would see a misappropriation of funds? If you and Fish Sticks think it is a misappropriation of funds, why don't you get the National Fish Coalition to sue the PFBC? The only attorney around who would take that case for you is one who just wants your money. The lawsuit would go nowhere.
 
To summarize the one you might have missed, some researchers found that removing the lion's share of BT from a ST stream still resulted in the ST population rebounding to the point that they overtook the BT.

So how do we rationalize 2 of 6 miles as taking out the majority of the wild browns? Personally, I have no attachment to this creek. Even limited info on it aside from what I'm learning here. I could support this effort as a way of learning something new. I just would like to see a bit of more complete effort so we can actually learn something other than removing browns on 33% of an established population stream probably doesn't work. I'm fairly sure we already know that before we even try.
 
Spruce Creek has a 1/2 mile section of stream that is mostly braided into two or more channels owned by Penn State University and open to the public, so for the record, Spruce Creek is not an "otherwise completely pay-to-play stream."

I don't recall reading anywhere that the "Voluntary Wild Trout & Enhanced Waters" money couldn't be used to aid wild brown trout. Seems to me wild brown trout are wild trout and fit the purpose of the fund perfectly.

Again, I see no misappropriation of funds. Do you think our legal system would see a misappropriation of funds? If you and Fish Sticks think it is a misappropriation of funds, why don't you get the National Fish Coalition to sue the PFBC? The only attorney around who would take that case for you is one who just wants your money. The lawsuit would go nowhere.
Semantics.

Nobody said anything about the money going to brown trout. My comments are about the private abuse of a Class A stream. Nothing else.
 
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