Lehigh River Dam Study

[TimMurphy]

jayL wrote:
The snake river is in idaho. The ocean is far from idaho. I'll take a guess that you're wrong, but choose not to do research.

But all that aside, it's apples and oranges because those species are native to that drainage.

Sorry man, but I am rooting against this, and I will be joining other anglers in fighting it tooth and nail if you guys try to do it.

Dear jay,

Before the advent of locks and dams on the Columbia River steelhead and salmon had free passage into 1000's of miles of tributaries of which the Snake River is one of the largest.

The big difference is that the dams out west more often than not do a great deal more than create a power boating pool where one did not previously exist. A large portion of the electrical grid in the American West is supported by hydro-dams.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[vcregular]

The Hudson I believe is second to the Chessy. But whatever, carry on.

 

[MattBoyer]

Pacific salmonids were introduced into the great lakes system because the introduction of alewife through careless shipping caused a collapse of the native Atlantic salmon by blocking their ability to process thiamine which is an essential process for reproduction of said species. The Pacific salmon were brought in to keep the alewife population under control so that eventually the native fishery could be restored, not so some yahoos could stringer up with some kromers "cuz it would be cool". Man, at least someone with a dog in this hunt, or better yet a bucket biologist with a "plan" could have googled it.

Boyer

 

[SBecker]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Becker,

If restoring the river to it's natural state via the removal of the dams is the goal why is there interest if introducing non-native species to the river?

Do people actually think that there would be a sudden influx of well heeled sportsmen willing to drop serious money into the local economy? If not that then what else is the motivation?

The thought is, Yes, there will be a large influx of money dropped by sportsman.

Atlantic salmon never occured south of the Housatonic River according to the current research and introducing them to the Delaware would be a waste of time, energy, and money in my opinion.

The biologist from NY that runs the program up there tends to disagree. He feels he would be able to bring the atlantics here and they would thrive. ( Remember I am just a messenger)

Why not concentrate on restoring all the native river species and make it a shad, herring, eel, and striper fishery?

That is the plan, but there are people that would like to see the other species brought in for year round fishing.

The Delaware Bay and River is second only to the Chesapeake system as a breeding ground for stripers. They should be the focus of restoration efforts.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Agreed, Is there a striper organization on the D? Would love to get them involved.

 

[MattBoyer]

LRSABecker wrote:

The biologist from NY that runs the program up there tends to disagree. He feels he would be able to bring the atlantics here and they would thrive. ( Remember I am just a messenger)

Did he take a summer water temp on Delaware bay and compare it to Lake O? I bet there's a minor difference.

Boyer

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear gfen,

To answer your Great Lakes query, the native salmon population consisted of Atlantic Salmon that ran the Saint Lawrence River to spawn.

The trout population consisted of Lake Trout and Brook Trout which were decimated by a combination of factors including but not limited to, commercial fishing, polution, and the introduction of the lamprey eel via the bilge pumps of cargo ships moving goods thoughout the Great Lakes.

Steelhead and Pacific salmon were introduced to fill a massive void in aquatic life in the Great Lakes. By the mid 1960's they had essentially become big axxed puddles with nothing of consequence living in them.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[SBecker]

MattBoyer wrote:

LRSABecker wrote:

The biologist from NY that runs the program up there tends to disagree. He feels he would be able to bring the atlantics here and they would thrive. ( Remember I am just a messenger)

Did he take a summer water temp on Delaware bay and compare it to Lake O? I bet there's a minor difference.

Boyer

Can't answer that and do not know enough about it.

 

[gfen]

TimMurphy wrote:
To answer your Great Lakes query, the native salmon population consisted of Atlantic Salmon that ran the Saint Lawrence River to spawn.

This I knew, however, did the Great Lakes support sea-run brooks, or is this a Maine and up oddity only?

TimMurphy wrote:
Steelhead and Pacific salmon were introduced to fill a massive void in aquatic life in the Great Lakes. By the mid 1960's they had essentially become big axxed puddles with nothing of consequence living in them.

This fall into the part about alewives up there, also?

So, do the current Pacific salmon and rainbow populations have a negative effect on brown and Atlantic populations, or none, or the Atlantic numbers are so decreased that no one's bothered to study because none of it matters?

Vaguely off topic: The original publication of Seuss' Lorax in 1971 included the line.. Well, hell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lorax#Controversy
The line "I hear things are just as bad up in Lake Erie" was removed more than fourteen years after the story was published after two research associates from the Ohio Sea Grant Program wrote to Seuss about the clean-up of Lake Erie.

 

[jayL]

This I knew, however, did the Great Lakes support sea-run brooks, or is this a Maine and up oddity only?

AFAIK, it took place in the mid atlantic too. At least as far south as long island.

 

[gfen]

If I weren't sitting at work, I'd make this an afternoon research job...alas, tis not to be.

S'funny, though, I thought one of the guys here had no time for this thread...?

Anyways, one thing I will ruminate on before leaving is several Internet based people state that steelhead got started in the Great Lakes by the introduction of rainbow trout into Michigan's river system to replace the dying population of dolly varden and grayling. Either the first fish imported were of the steelhead variety, and they ran to the lakes, or the later ones did, but that's how htey got there first.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear gfen,

Brook trout in the Great Lakes traveled up tributary streams draining into their respective lakes to spawn. In some lakes there are still remnant populations that do this.

The alewives thrived after the populations of brook and lake trout had crashed due to the varying mostly man-made factors. The alewives had no natural predators at that point until the steelhead and salmon were introduced.

Every so often a State like Michigan gets bug up their butt to do something to re-establish the lake trout population but lake trout live forever and aren't especially prolific spawners to begin with so the results are generally poor.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[gfen]

I've never understood the lake trout, bastard child of the sport fishing family. I've never, not once, met someone who said, "I love lake trout fishing!" I've never heard anyone say, "I'm going out for lake trout" and I've never heard tale of anyone remaking about record lakers.

Either I'm moving in the wrong circles, or no one cares. Meh. Didn't I say I was going to do productive junk?

 

[jayL]

I have gone lake trout fishing.

You need lead. Lots of it. Don't think it's your bag.

Talk to a minnesotan or canadian fisherman. They will tell you lake trout stories.

 

[gfen]

jayL wrote:
I have gone lake trout fishing.

You need lead. Lots of it. Don't think it's your bag.

Talk to a minnesotan or canadian fisherman. They will tell you lake trout stories.

Actually, IIRC, its all about trolling deep, right? I don't much see an appeal in THAT, either.

I have talked to Canuckistanis, and they've never mentioned not.. Not people from Minnesota, though. Never. God damn never.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear gfen,

Many many years ago there was a great artical in National Geographic that went into detail about what was thought of at the time of a great way to rejuvenate the fish populations of the Great Lakes.

I'm more than reasonably certain the steelhead and salmon in the Great Lakes are the result of attempting to control the alewive population after the demise of the native trout species.

Dolly Varden are not native to the Atlantic drainage so they could not have lived in the Great Lakes. There were, and there still may be, grayling in Northern Michigan but I think they spend much of their time in streams.

Lake trout are the only trout that I know of that can spawn successfully in a lake. All other trout must travel to a tributary stream to spawn, either by leaving a lake or traveling inland from the salt.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[TimMurphy]

jayL wrote:
I have gone lake trout fishing.

You need lead. Lots of it. Don't think it's your bag.

Talk to a minnesotan or canadian fisherman. They will tell you lake trout stories.

Dear jay,

In early May you can take a float tube out onto Lake Ontario and catch all the Lake Trout you can handle in 6 to 10 feet of water. There will also be some brown trout and steelhead mixed in until the water warms.

Just be careful because the water is mighty cold!

Deep water Lake Trout fishing comes about as the water warms and the thermocline drives them deeper in search of the cold water they need.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[jayL]

gfen wrote:

jayL wrote:
I have gone lake trout fishing.

You need lead. Lots of it. Don't think it's your bag.

Talk to a minnesotan or canadian fisherman. They will tell you lake trout stories.

Actually, IIRC, its all about trolling deep, right? I don't much see an appeal in THAT, either.

I have talked to Canuckistanis, and they've never mentioned not.. Not people from Minnesota, though. Never. God damn never.

I have caught them through the ice, but there is deep trolling going on up der in the north too.

 

[gfen]

jayL wrote:
I have caught them through the ice, but there is deep trolling going on up der in the north too.

Ice fishing.

No sir, I don't understand. Must be the beer.

 

[jayL]

Air temp was 55 degrees. If not for the foot thick layer of slush, we could have finished our football game. We were surrounded by tip ups.

Nothing wrong with that imo.

Tim,

That sounds like a blast to me. Might have to give it a shot this year.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear jay,

Just to let you know I didn't catch lakers from a float tube in Ontario but did catch piles of them by trolling within 100 yards or less of the shoreline.

As the water begins to warm in the Spring and the small fish and bait get more active the fish move close to shore. From a boat it is easy to see a "scum line" where the warmer and colder water mixes.

The fish are right along that line.

Regards,

Tim Murphy