Lehigh River Dam Study

[SBecker]

jayL wrote:
The snake river is in idaho. The ocean is far from idaho. I'll take a guess that you're wrong, but choose not to do research.

.

Not wrong, just read the stupid article.

 

[jayL]

No time. I'm going to start sketching the wireframes out for a few websites to fight this campaign of idiocy, should it come to fruition.

 

[SBecker]

jayL wrote:
The establishment of the fisheries in erie and ontario is already done. The damage can't really be reversed.

You can't compare the relatively closed ecosystems of the great lakes and tribs to that of the delaware watershed and bay. It doesn't make any sense.

What damage? I think 95 out of 100 people would say they are happy those species were introduced there.

Closed ecosystem? Uhhhm that is not a closed ecosystem. Just because they are lakes and Very large ones at that, does not mean they are closed. Think of all the tribs that run into the lake and where those tribs run into other tribs and rivers.

 

[jayL]

I said "relatively closed", and compared to the delaware bay watershed, it wasn't a stretch.

 

[SBecker]

jayL wrote:
No time. I'm going to start sketching the wireframes out for a few websites to fight this campaign of idiocy, should it come to fruition.

Hey while your at it and being such a strong advocate for eco systems, maybe you should start some websites that help fight Marcellus Shale and all the power plants on the susky that are ruining the SM bass fishery. imo

 

[jayL]

No time. Gotta fight the stringer brigade and co.

Power plants? Stop before you embarrass yourself. The fisheries were fine for years despite the power plants. Hell, I had my best days fishing from TMI.

 

[SBecker]

LOL I just find you being funny that you argued with me about the economic boom and then when I show some proof you do not want to hear it. It's ok Jay, you can choose what parts you want to argue about and be deaf on others.

 

[SBecker]

jayL wrote:
No time. Gotta fight the stringer brigade and co.

Power plants? Stop before you embarrass yourself. The fisheries were fine for years despite the power plants. Hell, I had my best days fishing from TMI.

Ehh I was just giving examples of this you should fight. Power plants are part of the problem, maybe not the best one lol

 

[jayL]

I'm not interested in the economic impact. I doubted your figures, but they have no bearing on my opinion on the subject.

Steelhead could #OOPS# gold and blue chip stocks and I would oppose this buffoonery.

And if you believed I was actually heading off to the labs to start designing websites, I have a fish farm in northampton county to sell you. :lol: I'd bet a significant sum of money that this whole thing is never even attempted, but I can promise that I'll be on the front lines to fight it if it is.

 

[SBecker]

jayL wrote:
I'm not interested in the economic impact. I doubted your figures, but they have no bearing on my opinion on the subject.

Steelhead could #OOPS# gold and blue chip stocks and I would oppose this buffoonery.

And if you believed I was actually heading off to the labs to start designing websites, I have a fish farm in northampton county to sell you. :lol: I'd bet a significant sum of money that this whole thing is never even attempted, but I can promise that I'll be on the front lines to fight it if it is.

I know you were being sarcastic and so was I. You can stand on the front lines all you want, there will be more bozo's on the other side willing to drive right over you with there white stocking truck.


BTW There is a fish farm in Northampton County that another organization is looking to purchase.


All this is moot until the dams are removed. Maybe you should start fighting the removal of the dams with Tri Boro Sportsman Association.

 

[gfen]

LRSABecker wrote:
I do not know Gfen why you are attacking me, as I stated before, I am not the one personally behind this and I am not the one that believe this will work. I am just stating what I have been told by people that know more then me. I will back it though if it proves to be true, just because of the financial windfall it could bring.

Were salmon and steel present in Erie, Ontario, or did they start stocking them? Don't here people complaining now do I? I would also guess that those tribs held brook trout as well?

You are the messenger, you are on point. Welcome to the fire fight. If you don't like this, I suggest you remove yourself from the press releases and let someone else do the dirty work. Sorry, we still love you even if you're stupidly wrong on this subject. Now, then...

These people do NOT know more than you, they may even know less than you. What they know is mostly moot, to be honest. The only thing htat matters is what they want. Greed is the answer to the question here.

"Wouldn't it be nice if..." always means the bottom line is self serving.

Furthermore, there is no "financial windfall." No one cares! You want a financial windfall, spend some time turning around the economic development of the greater Lehigh Valley. You can work on supplemanting the steel and cement industries and pushing the whole "just like the Silicon Valley, just three hours faster ahahah!" thing they were doing a few years back. That's a financial windfall. Olympus moving ops here, thats a windfall. Having a 50K scruffy assjack fishermen showing up to practice combat fishing in the LV for 4 months a year is not.

Were steelhead or salmon present in the Great Lakes? Let me answer your question with a question: Why do you think its called the Salmon River? Of course the sea run rainbow trout were not present, since rainbows, both anadromous and potamodromous, are a Western North America species, they did not.

More interestingly, and I don't know the answer, is what effect have introduced steelhead runs in the Great Lakes had on the native salmon population there? I can't imagine that the vast schools of implanted rainbow trout following up the last few salmon up the river must do to the poor Atlantic salmon who called the Great Lakes h ome, but surely its going to be detrimental, as new predators are introduced to the ecosystem.

No doubt very few people thought to complain about the introduction of steelhead to the Great Lakes in the mid 19th century when it started, because at the time it was assumed the oceans and rivers of the world were a bountiful, and endless, source of food. There was a time when you were encouraged to kill every fish you stung with a hook, too, but for some reason we've all evolved beyond the stringer junkie* mentality to one where things made a little more sense.

In hindsight, many choices were awful. Places like Australia, an essentially closed ecosystem, are wracked with many problems due to introduced species by outsiders who thought they'd be a good idea. Rabbits for food, foxes for sport, and cane toads for pest control have all turned into downright, truly epic, failures, ecological holocausts for the unique species that once thrived there.

* - I knew i'd find a place for that eventually!

 

[SBecker]

gfen wrote:

LRSABecker wrote:
I do not know Gfen why you are attacking me, as I stated before, I am not the one personally behind this and I am not the one that believe this will work. I am just stating what I have been told by people that know more then me. I will back it though if it proves to be true, just because of the financial windfall it could bring.

Were salmon and steel present in Erie, Ontario, or did they start stocking them? Don't here people complaining now do I? I would also guess that those tribs held brook trout as well?

You are the messenger, you are on point. Welcome to the fire fight. If you don't like this, I suggest you remove yourself from the press releases and let someone else do the dirty work. Sorry, we still love you even if you're stupidly wrong on this subject. Now, then...

These people do NOT know more than you, they may even know less than you. What they know is mostly moot, to be honest. The only thing htat matters is what they want. Greed is the answer to the question here.

"Wouldn't it be nice if..." always means the bottom line is self serving.

Furthermore, there is no "financial windfall." No one cares! You want a financial windfall, spend some time turning around the economic development of the greater Lehigh Valley. You can work on supplemanting the steel and cement industries and pushing the whole "just like the Silicon Valley, just three hours faster ahahah!" thing they were doing a few years back. That's a financial windfall. Olympus moving ops here, thats a windfall. Having a 50K scruffy assjack fishermen showing up to practice combat fishing in the LV for 4 months a year is not.

Were steelhead or salmon present in the Great Lakes? Let me answer your question with a question: Why do you think its called the Salmon River? Of course the sea run rainbow trout were not present, since rainbows, both anadromous and potamodromous, are a Western North America species, they did not.

More interestingly, and I don't know the answer, is what effect have introduced steelhead runs in the Great Lakes had on the native salmon population there? I can't imagine that the vast schools of implanted rainbow trout following up the last few salmon up the river must do to the poor Atlantic salmon who called the Great Lakes h ome, but surely its going to be detrimental, as new predators are introduced to the ecosystem.

No doubt very few people thought to complain about the introduction of steelhead to the Great Lakes in the mid 19th century when it started, because at the time it was assumed the oceans and rivers of the world were a bountiful, and endless, source of food. There was a time when you were encouraged to kill every fish you stung with a hook, too, but for some reason we've all evolved beyond the stringer junkie* mentality to one where things made a little more sense.

In hindsight, many choices were awful. Places like Australia, an essentially closed ecosystem, are wracked with many problems due to introduced species by outsiders who thought they'd be a good idea. Rabbits for food, foxes for sport, and cane toads for pest control have all turned into downright, truly epic, failures, ecological holocausts for the unique species that once thrived there.

* - I knew i'd find a place for that eventually!

WTFL Did not read

 

[gfen]

LRSABecker wrote:
Here is a link to what Idaho coalitions are saying the return of Salmon and Steel to the Snake River basin would bring in annually. I am just guessing that the Lehigh, Delaware is larger.

http://www.hydroreform.org/news/2005/08/02/restoring-idahos-fisheries-could-bring-over-500-million-annually-to-state-economy

Lies. Damn lies. Statistics.

Numbers thrown out in a puff piece from a group with a vested interest mean absolutely nothing. I'm sure that the various hydroelectric companies operating their dams on the Big Tater River could throw down a report saying that they provide 10x the amount of phat cash the IRU claims.

ANd I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, and much lower than what both of them would have you believe.

 

[gfen]

LRSABecker wrote:
WTFL Did not read

NOW I'm attacking you, then.

Don't be a petulant little child. If you want to put on the daddy pants and sell YOUR side of the story, then you're going to have to take your lumps and read abotu what people say is critical.

"TL;DR" is fine and cute when its the usual nonsense that goes on around here, but when you're suggesting to unleash a group of backyard itchyologists into a large river to introduce invasive species on a whim to make it durn gud fishin' fun y'all, then you'd damned well better be able to handle some goddamned criticism.

 

[SBecker]

LOL Jerry u funny

 

[gfen]

LRSABecker wrote:
BTW There is a fish farm in Northampton County that another organization is looking to purchase.

Like so many other pie-in-the-sky plans from the stringer brigade, once they realized what it meant and real economics and science came out, they folded up shop and went back to their social halls for cheap beer and lick their wounds.

If its the clowns I know you're referring to, they showed up to a gun fight with a pen knife. They brought a hand drawn map and some numbers pulled off the Internet about what an economic windfall a co-op hatchery would be along the banks of the Saucon Creek.

 

[gfen]

LRSABecker wrote:
LOL Jerry u funny

I'm not laughing.

 

[SBecker]

But I am, because I am done arguing about this subject. Ive spent the better part of the morning discussing this with Jay. I am now done. You came a little late, sorry. You have your opinions and I have mine and we each think ours are right.

 

[jayL]

LRSABecker wrote:
BTW There is a fish farm in Northampton County that another organization is looking to purchase.

Yeah, I know some people involved with it.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Becker,

If restoring the river to it's natural state via the removal of the dams is the goal why is there interest if introducing non-native species to the river?

Do people actually think that there would be a sudden influx of well heeled sportsmen willing to drop serious money into the local economy? If not that then what else is the motivation?

Atlantic salmon never occured south of the Housatonic River according to the current research and introducing them to the Delaware would be a waste of time, energy, and money in my opinion.

Why not concentrate on restoring all the native river species and make it a shad, herring, eel, and striper fishery?

The Delaware Bay and River is second only to the Chesapeake system as a breeding ground for stripers. They should be the focus of restoration efforts.

Regards,

Tim Murphy