Legal?

[Maurice]

Maurice wrote:
Class A sections not under special regulation that are upstream of ATW's are CLOSED Mar 1 til Opening day.

FarmerDave wrote:



Show me the regulation that says that. and what about Class B, C, and D?

Annex A
Regulation No. 48A-174
Title 58. Recreation
Part II. Fish and Boat Commission
Subpart B. Fishing
Chapter 63. GENERAL FISHING REGULATIONS

§63.3. Fishing in approved trout waters.

It is unlawful to fish in approved trout waters from 12:01 a.m. March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season in April. As used in this subpart, the term “approved trout waters” means designated waters that contain significant portions that are open to public fishing [that] and are stocked with trout. * * *

So as the list below shows...the little Lehigh is closed in the class A sections because no boundaries are set.


LEHIGH
Big Trout Creek -- Cedar Creek (Lake Muhlenburg outflow downstream to mouth) -- Coplay Creek -- Jordan Creek -- Kistler Creek -- Leaser Lake -- Lehigh Canal (from first lock upstream of Monocacy Creek downstream to Monocacy Creek Crossing) -- Little Lehigh Creek -- Monocacy Creek -- Ontelaunee Creek -- South Branch Saucon Creek -- Swabia Creek -- Switzer Creek

However, here the EB Perkiomen is open above the designated boundary.

BUCKS
Delaware Canal (Two Sections-Upper Washington Crossing State Park and Lower Washington Crossing State Park downstream to East Maple Street Bridge in Morrisville) -- East Branch Perkiomen Creek (Branch Road Bridge (T-431) downstream through Sellersville) -- Lake Luxembourg -- Levittown Lake -- Neshaminy Creek (Two sections-Valley Road to Mill Road near Jamison and from the dam at the causeway in Tyler State Park downstream to the bridge on SR 332) -- Unami Creek (Milford Township Park downstream to Trumbauersville Road (SR 4051))

What I should have added is that if it has boundaries on the ATW list then it is not the WHOLE stream. But if not it IS the WHOLE stream.

Maurice

 

[afishinado]

The ATW and wild trout water are clearly marked on the PFBC county maps. Brown lines=ATW, green lines=WTW. Some entire streams are entirely ATW, while others are sectioned off.

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/water/county/pfbcmaps/lehi.htm

 

[FarmerDave]

Tim, I agree that it is better to be safe than sorry, but it is aparent to me that the Approved Trout Waters Open Year Round is just another list, and not a subset of the Approved trout waters list. Also, it is not a Subset of the "downstream areas", either. some are upstream, some are downstream, and some are entire cricks. I didn't see any that are on both lists. they are more like another special regulation stream. They can even be found in the same area of the online rules.

Back to "rather safe than sorry". in many cases, you might be pushing it. In some you are not. Take Tionesta Creek for instance, but only because i am familiar with it. Starting at the upstream end where the branches run together and heading downstream. The "approved Trout Waters" ends at the Mayburg Bridge. Legally, you can fish downstream from there. Well, not within 25 feet of the boundary. I personally have not fished within a few miles of the bridge before the season opens, but I have fished this section, and I will continue to argue that it is legal. Maybe not wise, but legal. This same section is sandwitched between an Approved Trout Water, and an Approved Trout Water Open year round. I think the bottom section is what it is because it is very popular for other species of fish from Crappie to Musky, and there are also some torut. I don't know if it is stocked, but aparently it is. Might be bottom release. lots of fish in that outlet, and all kinds of them.

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:

I think you are half right...I think they are talking about:

"approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters."

I don't think they are talking about the:

"Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” part, though.

The only reason they even mention the latter is to emphasize that tribs: class A,B,C...unclassified, whatever aren't open to harvest.

So I do not think you can legally fish for trout on ATWs or their downstream areas between mar 1 and opening day.

But I do think, and the website states as much, that you can fish a Class A during that time as long as it isn't also on the ATW list.

I am not convinced it is unlawful, although I think it would be unwise, to fish upstream of an ATW during the closed season.

explain something to me Tom. In Paragraph 1 you have subject A, B, and C.
A = approved trout waters.
B= unlisted downstream areas (unlisted is implied)
C= unlisted tributary streams.

How could you say that the second paragraph applies to A and B, but not C? go back and look at the way the paragraphs are worded. You can't pick and chose. either they are talking about the main subject, or they are talking about A, B, and C. If they are talking A, B, and C, they are using very poor document structure. I'm not an english teacher or a lawyer, but i do know that in court, if there are any ambiguities, it goes against the side that wrote the document.

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:
I saw our local CO today but he was on the other side of the lake so I didn't get to ask him...Has anyone tried picking up the phone?

If you are looking for a practical answer on a particular stretch of water, talk to your WCO. He is the guy who would write out the ticket. However, that doesn't mean he knows all the laws. I have a first cousin who is a Deputy Fish cop, and I wouldn't count on him knowing with any certainty everything that is legal or illegal. to find out an official answer, you would need to go a little higher up.

 

[Maurice]

Dave.

You can fish below the Kelletville bridge all the way to the bouys in the Tionesta dam breast. Because the ATW is listed to end at the Kelletville bridge. "From the County limit to Kelletville bridge" And The branches are fully ATWs.

Maurice

 

[tomgamber]

FarmerDave wrote:

tomgamber wrote:


The only reason they even mention the latter is to emphasize that tribs: class A,B,C...unclassified, whatever aren't open to harvest.

So I do not think you can legally fish for trout on ATWs or their downstream areas between mar 1 and opening day.

But I do think, and the website states as much, that you can fish a Class A during that time as long as it isn't also on the ATW list.

I am not convinced it is unlawful, although I think it would be unwise, to fish upstream of an ATW during the closed season.

explain something to me Tom. In Paragraph 1 you have subject A, B, and C.
A = approved trout waters.
B= unlisted downstream areas (unlisted is implied)
C= unlisted tributary streams.

How could you say that the second paragraph applies to A and B, but not C? go back and look at the way the paragraphs are worded. You can't pick and chose. either they are talking about the main subject, or they are talking about A, B, and C. If they are talking A, B, and C, they are using very poor document structure. I'm not an english teacher or a lawyer, but i do know that in court, if there are any ambiguities, it goes against the side that wrote the document.

I already answered that...see bold

 

[FarmerDave]

Show me the regulation that says that. and what about Class B, C, and D?

Annex A
Regulation No. 48A-174
Title 58. Recreation
Part II. Fish and Boat Commission
Subpart B. Fishing
Chapter 63. GENERAL FISHING REGULATIONS

§63.3. Fishing in approved trout waters.

It is unlawful to fish in approved trout waters from 12:01 a.m. March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season in April. [color=FF3300]As used in this subpart, the term “approved trout waters” means designated waters that contain significant portions that are open to public fishing [that] and are stocked with trout. [/color] * * *

I highleted some key stuff. It clearly says designated waters

What I should have added is that if it has boundaries on the ATW list then it is not the WHOLE stream. But if not it IS the WHOLE stream.

Maurice

That is exactly what i was saying Maurice. If it has boundaries, it is not the whole stream.

 

[FarmerDave]

Maurice wrote:
Dave.

You can fish below the Kelletville bridge all the way to the bouys in the Tionesta dam breast. Because the ATW is listed to end at the Kelletville bridge. "From the County limit to Kelletville bridge" And The branches are fully ATWs.

Maurice

Oops, I meant Kelletville, not Mayburg. My bad. Glad we now agree on the main point now, or at least i think we do.

 

[tomgamber]

FarmerDave wrote:

tomgamber wrote:
I saw our local CO today but he was on the other side of the lake so I didn't get to ask him...Has anyone tried picking up the phone?

If you are looking for a practical answer on a particular stretch of water, talk to your WCO. He is the guy who would write out the ticket. However, that doesn't mean he knows all the laws. I have a first cousin who is a Deputy Fish cop, and I wouldn't count on him knowing with any certainty everything that is legal or illegal. to find out an official answer, you would need to go a little higher up.

right, thats why I asked if anyone tried calling the PFBC...

You can keep telling us you're not a lawyer or an english major or whatever else you're NOT... its kind of like Jack's tag line...make an argument then finish with..."but remember I have no Idea what I'm talking about"

I see why we don't agree and the wording is ambiguous at best, poorly written at worst and possibly written that way on purpose. Kind of like the Q&A page on Class As where they tell you something "might not be a violation per se". There has to be a senior PFBC Law Enforcment supervisor or something to that affect that we could call. Any suggestions? I'll call if it'll put this to rest.

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:

tomgamber wrote:


The only reason they even mention the latter is to emphasize that tribs: class A,B,C...unclassified, whatever aren't open to harvest.

So I do not think you can legally fish for trout on ATWs or their downstream areas between mar 1 and opening day.

But I do think, and the website states as much, that you can fish a Class A during that time as long as it isn't also on the ATW list.

I am not convinced it is unlawful, although I think it would be unwise, to fish upstream of an ATW during the closed season.

explain something to me Tom. In Paragraph 1 you have subject A, B, and C.
A = approved trout waters.
B= unlisted downstream areas (unlisted is implied)
C= unlisted tributary streams.

How could you say that the second paragraph applies to A and B, but not C? go back and look at the way the paragraphs are worded. You can't pick and chose. either they are talking about the main subject, or they are talking about A, B, and C. If they are talking A, B, and C, they are using very poor document structure. I'm not an english teacher or a lawyer, but i do know that in court, if there are any ambiguities, it goes against the side that wrote the document.

I already answered that...see bold

I saw that, but it didn't make sense. the only reason they mentioned downstream areas was because you can harvest there in the extended season.

Why would one apply and not the other (to the second paragraph).

 

[FarmerDave]

tomgamber wrote:


You can keep telling us you're not a lawyer or an english major or whatever else you're NOT... its kind of like Jack's tag line...make an argument then finish with..."but remember I have no Idea what I'm talking about"

OK, so ignore that part. I do write and approve technical documents and review and approve even more for a living. I think I supported my end pretty well. I have seen no arguments the other way that have come close to shooting it down.

I see why we don't agree and the wording is ambiguous at best, poorly written at worst and possibly written that way on purpose. Kind of like the Q&A page on Class As where they tell you something "might not be a violation per se". There has to be a senior PFBC Law Enforcment supervisor or something to that affect that we could call. Any suggestions? I'll call if it'll put this to rest.

Agree. Not only that, those superiors will more than likely tell you to talk to your local guy. The PF&BC deliberately write in ambiguities that requires some interpretation and leave some of it for the WCOs. Define unharmed. One could interpret a hole in the lip as harm to a trout and we all know C&R does not mean zero mortality. I personally don't fish for trout during the closed areas unless it is a special regs area. instead I fish for other things.

If you think the PF&BC is bad, you should look at some of the IEC documents that I have to work with for a living.

Here is another good one in the PA fishing rules. According to the rules, you don't need a trout stamp to fish class B or worse streams at any time, as long as they are not approved trout waters, or wilderness trout streams or tribs of ATWs, Class A, or Wilderness trout streams. I can name a few that fit in that loophole.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Dave,

Not that it matters much in this discussion but I have to admit to not being familiar with many streams where only a portion of the stream is an approved trout water. All the stocked streams I am familiar with are listed by stream name only with no section listings so I am accustomed to an ATW being a source to mouth proposition.

I'll definitely agree that if you are a couple of miles below the listed end of a stocked portion that you should be able to fish it as the rules are written, I just can't name a stream that fits that description from personal experience.

Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Bamboozle]

I have asked this question many many times in phone calls to PFBC Law Enforcement Division, Regional Offices, and WCO's. The answer I've gotten when asking about specific Class A or other non-stocked sections of ATW, (meaning on the list); UPSTREAM or DOWN is the same; if it's on the list WITHOUT specific boundaries; then the whole stream is CLOSED from March 1st to the Opener.

I also can recall other times when I wanted to go sucker fishing and specifically inquired about Darby Creek in Delaware County. I was told by the Regional Office, "not after March 1st ANYWHERE" regardless of sections stocked.

Also take a look at the PFBC County Guide ATW maps versus the stocked sections. Even though sections may be posted or not stocked (excluding Class A); when you review the stocking lists; the PFBC tends to highlight the entire stream as ATW.

Finally, I have a written request for an answer to this unanswerable question in to the PFBC so I can have in writing what I have been told repeatedly. IF I ever get a response I'll post it.

 

[JackM]

I spoke to a fisheries manager this morning who says that only the part of the stream designated as ATW is closed. Where the ATW designation is the stream name, with no boundaries, then all is closed. Where the designation defines a upper and lower limit, then areas outside those limits are not closed. I believe this is a defensible interpretation and appears to be consistent with what others have been told.

Now, on to Framer Dave's comment. Here is a riddle:

A man is standing in the middle of a stream. He holds a fly rod and is casting a #16 BWO to rising fish. You asking him what he is doing and he says he's fishing for trout. The stream is not an ATW, Class A, wilderness or special regs stream. You confidently tell him that he is NOT fishing for trout. He looks at you like you're nuts and you walk away clutching a copy of 58 Pa. Code, section 63.20(e), smug in your knowledge that you are correct and he is in fact wrong. Are you? Is he?

 

[tomgamber]

You know, I just re-read most of this thread and all of a sudden, I'm confused on what exact question we need answered. So tell me...what is (are ) the question(s) that we can't agree we know the answer to? Give me 1, 2, 3, straight questions and I will make an effort to get them answered. That is unless you are having too much fun...

 

[JackM]

Tom, I speak for myself in saying I'm having fun, but not too much fun. Anyhow, please do not contact Rick Lorson (that's who I spoke with) in the Southwest Region or he'll probably get a bit irritated. Get the answer from a WCO or PFBC lawyer.

1. If a stream is on the ATW list by name only (no section limits) but is only stocked in a certain defined area, can an angler fish there between March 1 and opening day if he stays out of the section that is stocked? Does it matter if he is fishing upstream or downstream of the stocked section?

2. If a stream is on the ATW list by section limits, such as the Casselman in my example from yesterday, can an angler fish outside of that section between March 1 and opening day? Does it matter if he is fishing upstream or downstream of the defined section?

3. Is the guy casting a BWO to rising trout on a non-wilderness, non-ATW, non-special regs, non-Class A stream "fishing for trout?" (Ask this one after satisfied with all else because you may hear the receiver slammed down after a few choice words are grumbled).

:-D

 

[FarmerDave]

Bam, Some of the confusin is because of the definition of Approved Trout waters. Here it is again.

"Many streams, lakes, ponds, and reservoirs are officially classified as “approved trout waters.” This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout."

This does not say that only the stocked sections are approved trout waters. It doesn't even say that significant portions are stocked. It simply says approved trout waters are stocked. If it is stocked at just one bridge, it is still stocked. in order to find what is approved trout waters, you don't have to lok at where the white trucks stop. you only have to look at the approved trout waters list.

I have been saying all along that if the stream is listed by only it's name, then it is off limits to fishing for anything from March 1 to opening day (unless it is specifically on another one of the lists that allow it).

If a stream is listed and it provides boundaries for the ATW, then it is illegal to fish within those boundaries. these streams are not common, but they are out there. For Tionesta Creek (my example), that would be from its start downstream to the Kelletville bridge. Fishing below that is legal in my opinion, based on the way the rules are written. Now, that doesn't mean a WCO will not give you a ticket. It wouldn't be the first time someone got a ticket who was not actually breaking the law as it was written. If you want to avoid a ticket all together, don't fish, or you need to ask your WCO what his interpretation will be, before you actually fish.

and before someone points it out, the Branches of Tionesta creek are listed as approved trout waters, so they are off limits for the entire stream.

P.S. I've said before that i am not a lawyer, and i am not. The only reason I felt the need to state that is so I don't get sued if someone gets a ticket following what i say is legal. Also, I don't want everyone to hate me. :lol:

 

[FarmerDave]

Jack,

That depends. Is this stream a tributary of a Class A, wilderness trout stream, or ATW? If not, then his actions do not fit the PF&BC definition of fishing for trout. ... and like i said, he doesn't need a trout stamp ... unless of course he is in posession of a trout ... In which case, he needs a trout stamp, but still is not trout fishing according the PAF&B definition. :lol:

Oh yea, almost forgot. the last part of my answer should also include ... on the fish for free days you still aren't fishing for trout and don't need a trout stamp, even if you have 5 trout on a stringer.

 

[FarmerDave]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Dave,

Not that it matters much in this discussion but I have to admit to not being familiar with many streams where only a portion of the stream is an approved trout water. All the stocked streams I am familiar with are listed by stream name only with no section listings so I am accustomed to an ATW being a source to mouth proposition.

I'll definitely agree that if you are a couple of miles below the listed end of a stocked portion that you should be able to fish it as the rules are written, I just can't name a stream that fits that description from personal experience.

Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂

Tim, that's nice of you to agree like that, but why must I limit it to a couple miles below. How about 1.9 mile. How about a one mile. How about a half mile. How about 100 yards ... Either it is legal or it isn't. The rules say I am in trouble if I am within 25 feet of an ATW (different rule). that is the only distance I can find in the rules.

the ATWs with specific boundaries are rare, but i found some with upper and lower boundaries. i just knew it was legal from tionesta Creek. i used to fish it a lot.