tomgamber
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He didn't ask... and I didn't say whether it was open or closed..he asked if this would be considered downstream...thats why I thought the answer was kind of obvious.
Legal?
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FarmerDave
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Actually, I don't agree with the second half of that statement. Like Jack pointed out, the downstream areas is only mentioned when talking about the extended season. Sure these downstream sections are closed to trout harvesting from March to opening day (as are all streams), but the only parts actually close to all fishing are the actual ATWs. This does not include the downstream or upstream areas outside of the bountaries.
That said, the PF&BC deliberately puts wiggle room into thes rules so they can still site you if they feel like it. That is, if you are actually catching trout. :lol:
FarmerDave
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I gotta give Jack the credit for pointing it out. Although I knew Chaz was mistaken when he said the downstream sections are closed, I didn't have time to actually look it up. I knew I could count on Jack. I just knew it was legal to fish in those areas and wasn't prepared to say why. We used to do it all the time, but we weren't targeting trout. We were targeting whatever would bite our bait, and mostly, it was suckers. We never bumped into Tim Murphy though.
TimMurphy
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Dear Dave,
If the downstream areas are open to fishing during the period from March 1 to the regional Opening Day perhaps you'd care to explain why approved trout waters open to fishing during that time frame are clearly specified in the license book?
If it ain't closed what purpose is served by specifically telling people it's open? :-D
Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂
If the downstream areas are open to fishing during the period from March 1 to the regional Opening Day perhaps you'd care to explain why approved trout waters open to fishing during that time frame are clearly specified in the license book?
If it ain't closed what purpose is served by specifically telling people it's open? :-D
Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂
Dave wrote:
Dave, you got it wrong....well maybe not wrong but a little verhootzed.
An Aproved Trout Water is from headwater to confluence...the designation of stocking areas (upstream of bridge A to tributary on right bank B) define the ATW...the entire creek is the ATW.
so.......
The ATW's upstream, downstream all around the town are CLOSED March 1-opening day.
The ATW's and downstream areas are open to harvest in the extended season Labor day til Mar 1.
Upstream of ATW's are open to fishing with immediate C&R during the extended season. No fish in posession. ..may be in violation of the law if fish are not returned to survive.
Class A sections not under special regulation that are upstream of ATW's are CLOSED Mar 1 til Opening day.
Non-ATW's that flow into ATW's are OPEN year round with no harvest during the extended season.
I will say that I agree that if you are fishing Wayyyyy downstream for carp you'd be OK but like Jack said...be careful going near a crik with a rod this time of year.
As a hypothetical side note...if for instance you had a stream that was taken off the stocking list, no longer an ATW, and say a co-op nursery stocked it on March 4th...you could rightfully fish it, with no harvest on, March 4,5,6-31...Not that I would. In fact, the streams we stock with club fish that are not ATW's we only stock inseason for that reason.
Maurice
Dave, you got it wrong....well maybe not wrong but a little verhootzed.
An Aproved Trout Water is from headwater to confluence...the designation of stocking areas (upstream of bridge A to tributary on right bank B) define the ATW...the entire creek is the ATW.
so.......
The ATW's upstream, downstream all around the town are CLOSED March 1-opening day.
The ATW's and downstream areas are open to harvest in the extended season Labor day til Mar 1.
Upstream of ATW's are open to fishing with immediate C&R during the extended season. No fish in posession. ..may be in violation of the law if fish are not returned to survive.
Class A sections not under special regulation that are upstream of ATW's are CLOSED Mar 1 til Opening day.
Non-ATW's that flow into ATW's are OPEN year round with no harvest during the extended season.
I will say that I agree that if you are fishing Wayyyyy downstream for carp you'd be OK but like Jack said...be careful going near a crik with a rod this time of year.
As a hypothetical side note...if for instance you had a stream that was taken off the stocking list, no longer an ATW, and say a co-op nursery stocked it on March 4th...you could rightfully fish it, with no harvest on, March 4,5,6-31...Not that I would. In fact, the streams we stock with club fish that are not ATW's we only stock inseason for that reason.
Maurice
FarmerDave
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If a frog had wings, he wouldn't pump his butt when he hops.
Here is the deal Tim. I was speaking in general terms. However, you are all over the place.
If it is Approved trout waters, then it is closed to all fishing from March 1 to opening day, [color=993300]Unless otherwise specified[/color]. Sorry for leaving that disclaimer out.
When you say "downstream areas", I'll assume you mean downstream of approved trout waters. If they are downstream of approved waters they are not approved trout waters. It is that simple.
So, I don't see what it is that you want me to explain (other than the part I covered above. Either it is approved trout waters, or it isn't.
You are bunching everything together.
Regular and extended season regulations apply to approved trout waters, and downstream areas. Extended season rules do not apply to upstream areas outside of the approved trout waters boundaries. right? However, they are still open to fishing on a catch and release basis.
Only approved trout waters are closed to fishing from March 1 to opening day. This does not apply to upstream or downstream areas outside of the approved waters, just like extended season regulations do not apply to upstream areas. However, they are still open to fishing.
Unless you can find text that says otherwise...
FarmerDave
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sometimes, but not always. Look at the list again. you will find streams that have distinct upper and lower boundaries. Look at Tionesta Creek for example in Forest County. The lower boundary is a bridge. You can fish below that. However, I would surely not fish very close to it before the opener. But here is a hint. Below that bridge for a few miles aint a bad place to fish on or after the opener.
Depends on the town.
True
True.
Show me the regulation that says that. and what about Class B, C, and D?
I'll buy that.
That is good advise. I don't fish for any trout during that time, but i do fish. But that is just me.
FarmerDave
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Check this out. This is under Approved Trout Waters.
Many streams, lakes, ponds, and reservoirs are officially classified as “approved trout waters.” This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. The waters listed here are open to trout harvest during the “extended season” (see Commonwealth Inland Waters). Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open during this period. Spearing fish is not permitted in any of these waters at any time of the year.
These waters are closed to all fishing (including taking of minnows) from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of the trout season. Some of these waters have been included in the Early Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program and are open from March 1 through March 31. A person shall be deemed to be fishing if he or she has in possession any fishing line, rod, or other device that can be used for fishing while on or in any water or on the banks within 25 feet of any water where fishing is prohibited.
Now, I am no English teacher, but I can say the following with confidence. When they say "these waters" in the second paragraph, they are talking about the main subject (Approved Trout Waters). The second paragraph does not apply to everything included in the first paragraph (e.g. downstream waters). Otherwise it would not be a new paragraph.
the approved trout waters list is used a lot of ways, but nothing outside of the approved trout waters are actually closed to fishing at any time during the year. Unless of course they refuge areas and those are close year round.
Tim, this part is for you. Maybe it will ask your earlier question.
"Some of these waters have been included in the Early Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program and are open from March 1 through March 31. "
These appear to be separate. They are not downstream areas.
Many streams, lakes, ponds, and reservoirs are officially classified as “approved trout waters.” This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. The waters listed here are open to trout harvest during the “extended season” (see Commonwealth Inland Waters). Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open during this period. Spearing fish is not permitted in any of these waters at any time of the year.
These waters are closed to all fishing (including taking of minnows) from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of the trout season. Some of these waters have been included in the Early Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program and are open from March 1 through March 31. A person shall be deemed to be fishing if he or she has in possession any fishing line, rod, or other device that can be used for fishing while on or in any water or on the banks within 25 feet of any water where fishing is prohibited.
Now, I am no English teacher, but I can say the following with confidence. When they say "these waters" in the second paragraph, they are talking about the main subject (Approved Trout Waters). The second paragraph does not apply to everything included in the first paragraph (e.g. downstream waters). Otherwise it would not be a new paragraph.
the approved trout waters list is used a lot of ways, but nothing outside of the approved trout waters are actually closed to fishing at any time during the year. Unless of course they refuge areas and those are close year round.
Tim, this part is for you. Maybe it will ask your earlier question.
"Some of these waters have been included in the Early Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program and are open from March 1 through March 31. "
These appear to be separate. They are not downstream areas.
FarmerDave
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I have to make a correction. i was looking at the wrong thing. While looking under "Approved trout waters open year round", I discovered "Tionesta Creek from the outflow downstream". this is not on the Approved Trout Waters list, so I have no idea why it would be specified as Approved trout waters open year round. It is not onlly several miles from the "approved Trout Waters", but there is also a resevoir in between which is not on either list and is open to fishing. Things that make you go Hmmmm. The only explanation that makes sense (that I can think of) is these are separate lists, and one is not a subset of the other. Is this what you are talking about Tim?
tomgamber
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I think you are half right...I think they are talking about:
"approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters."
I don't think they are talking about the:
"Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” part, though.
The only reason they even mention the latter is to emphasize that tribs: class A,B,C...unclassified, whatever aren't open to harvest.
So I do not think you can legally fish for trout on ATWs or their downstream areas between mar 1 and opening day.
But I do think, and the website states as much, that you can fish a Class A during that time as long as it isn't also on the ATW list.
I am not convinced it is unlawful, although I think it would be unwise, to fish upstream of an ATW during the closed season.
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Why is it that Mike from the PFBC is eager to straighten us out about how the Commission's regulatory actions/inactions aren't detrimental to wild trout or at least are not needed to protect them but he hasn't yet posted his understanding of this open/closed, ATW/non-ATW, upstream/downstream controversy?
Just sayin', is all. :-?
Just sayin', is all. :-?
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Can't show you a regulation other than the interpretation of the one that I quoted in my first post, but....
Lookie here:
SOMERSET
Allen Creek -- Beaverdam Creek -- Beaverdam Run -- Bens Creek -- Breastwork Run -- Brush Creek -- Casselman River (from MD - PA state line downstream to Moser Road (T-353) Bridge) -- Clear Shade Creek -- Cub Run -- Elk Lick Creek -- Flaugherty Creek -- Gladdens Run -- Glade Run -- Jones Mill Run -- Kimberly Run -- Kooser Lake -- Kooser Run -- Laurel Hill Creek -- Laurel Hill Lake -- Little Piney Creek -- McClintock Run -- Middle Creek -- Miller Run -- Piney Creek -- Piney Run -- Raystown Branch Juniata River -- Shafer Run -- Shaffers Run -- South Fork Bens Creek -- Stony Creek (from Yonai Road (T-515) Bridge downstream to railroad retaining wall 0.25 mile downstream of Covered Bridge Road (T-565) Bridge) -- Tub Mill Run -- Whites Creek -- Wills Creek -- Youghiogheny River lake tailwaters
This is the listing of "ATWs" in Somerset County in the Summary of Fishing regulations as reproduced on-line.
I would submit that ALL of Allen Creek is closed now. The same with Beaverdam, Bens, Breastwork and Brush. Now, regarding the Casselman, I am willing to allow the possibility that the Casselman downstream of Moser Road is not an ATW. Thus, it would not be closed to fishing downstream of this point presently.
However, focusing again on those waters designated only by stream name, consider this one:
Allens Creek gets stocked one time according to the released stocking schedule. According to that schedule (http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/stocking/counties/some.htm), the stocking occurs once during the season in Section 2, which is said to be "2.3 Mi Upstrm From Mouth-downstream to-Mouth."
Since the stocking does not occur upstream of the point which is "2.3 miles upstream from the mouth," are you suggesting that one can legally fish above that upper limit, since it is a part of the stream which "is not stocked?" If so, I am afraid I must continue to disagree and would warn people against doing so. Personally, I would avoid the lower Casselman as well.
TimMurphy
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Dear Dave,
Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. Each geographical region of the State has a list of specific approved trout waters that are open to year round fishing. Some of them are lakes, but many are streams. For example, there is a specific portion of Stony Creek in Dauphin County that is open to year round fishing. A substantial portion of the stream is stocked below that section all the way to the stream mouth and it is closed from March 1-30. In reading the list of approved streams open to year round fishing I know that some of them are stocked in-season only. I think the upper section of Stony Creek is one of those streams, I know Tohickon Creek in Bucks County is only stocked in-season.
That leads me to believe that if a stocked stream isn't on that list as open to year round fishing you probably would be wise not to fish it from March 1 until the Region's Opening Day. I'll agree that there is a world of difference between fishing the Allegheny River at the "Point" in Pittsburgh compared to fishing it in Potter County, but when you get closer to what is commonly accepted as the limit of downstream stocking I think the line gets blurred and I prefer to err on the side of caution. I have no legal training to tell me I'm correct, but I figure better safe than sorry and that was the only point I was trying to make.
Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂
tomgamber
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Tim I think that list of "APPROVED TROUT WATERS OPEN TO YEAR-ROUND FISHING"...ALL are stocked in season only. They get one stocking per year and its after opening day. The one near me gets stocked in may usually. Yes, they are separate lists...its considered a special regs area like DHALO or any of those. The summary book lists them along side other special regs areas.
APPROVED TROUT WATERS OPEN TO YEAR-ROUND FISHING
Waters with this designation are considered “approved trout waters.” From 8 a.m. opening day of trout through Sep. 3, Commonwealth inland size and creel limits apply. From Jan. 1, through Feb. 28, and from Sep. 4, through Dec. 31, “extended season” size and creel limits apply. These waters are open to fishing from March 1 through opening day of trout season; however, no trout may be taken or possessed on these waters during this period.
I'd say so...
Are there stocked waters that aren't ATWs?
APPROVED TROUT WATERS OPEN TO YEAR-ROUND FISHING
Waters with this designation are considered “approved trout waters.” From 8 a.m. opening day of trout through Sep. 3, Commonwealth inland size and creel limits apply. From Jan. 1, through Feb. 28, and from Sep. 4, through Dec. 31, “extended season” size and creel limits apply. These waters are open to fishing from March 1 through opening day of trout season; however, no trout may be taken or possessed on these waters during this period.
I'd say so...
Are there stocked waters that aren't ATWs?
Maybe cuz he is a biologist and not in law enforcement. Or he had his fill of tomatos this month. :-D
maurice
tomgamber
Well-known member
I saw our local CO today but he was on the other side of the lake so I didn't get to ask him...Has anyone tried picking up the phone?
Dave: Maurice's interpretation all flows from his premise that the entire stream is an "Approved Trout Water" even if the sections on which stocking actually takes place - meaning those sections listed in the Summary book and on the web - do not encompass the whole stream. You are starting from the opposite premise - that only those sections whose boundaries are delineated in the county by county list constitute "Approved Trout Waters." Since its clear that ATWs (except those specially designated) - and nothing else - are closed to fishing in the spring stocking season, it makes a difference which premise is correct.
I am inclined to agree with your reading, but I am far from certain. For example, if a section is removed from the list because of lack of public access or poor habitat, why would that section be "approved" for stocking? As a practical matter, at least, it is expressly NOT "approved" for stocking.
Jack seems willing to consider that maybe you are right about those non-listed sections of the same body of water, but points out that most ATWs listed are complete bodies of water anyway, so the difference isn't that great.
From what I have seen so far, I don't think its possible to tell for sure based on what currently appears in the web site summaries. If I get some time tomorrow I'll try to dig it up in the PA Code or the regs promulgated under it.
I am inclined to agree with your reading, but I am far from certain. For example, if a section is removed from the list because of lack of public access or poor habitat, why would that section be "approved" for stocking? As a practical matter, at least, it is expressly NOT "approved" for stocking.
Jack seems willing to consider that maybe you are right about those non-listed sections of the same body of water, but points out that most ATWs listed are complete bodies of water anyway, so the difference isn't that great.
From what I have seen so far, I don't think its possible to tell for sure based on what currently appears in the web site summaries. If I get some time tomorrow I'll try to dig it up in the PA Code or the regs promulgated under it.
Gone4Day
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Thankfully, the PFBC cleared this up last year: Rulemaking. Simply put, if the stream is NOT on the ATW list (by county), you’re good to go. If you read the ATW list, limits are clearly defined. The Allegheny river for example, falls off the list where it merges with Allegheny Portage creek in McKean county Topozone. Upstream its ATW, downstream from there, its ok to fish year round. You guys make things so complicated. 😛
