Improving Wild Trout Angling in PA

[Oregon_OwlII]

The last WCO I saw in Pennsylvania was 1988. Moved out of state in 2013, so that would be 25 years.

bigjohn58 wrote:

moon1284 wrote:

I agree, however it's not vey hard at all to line these fish. And it's next to impossible for a wco to be able to identify that on a trout stream.

Whats a wco? BFC hasn't seen one in almost 2 years now...

The last WCO I saw in Pennsylvania was 1988. Moved out of state in 2013, so that would be 25 years.

 

[bigjohn58]

Oregon_OwlII wrote:
The last WCO I saw in Pennsylvania was 1988. Moved out of state in 2013, so that would be 25 years.

bigjohn58 wrote:

moon1284 wrote:

I agree, however it's not vey hard at all to line these fish. And it's next to impossible for a wco to be able to identify that on a trout stream.

Whats a wco? BFC hasn't seen one in almost 2 years now...

The last WCO I saw in Pennsylvania was 1988. Moved out of state in 2013, so that would be 25 years.

Clinton County (I believe he covered lower Clinton and part of Centre) used to have a fish warden probably 5 or 6 years ago that we ALWAYS saw. He was annoying BUT he did make a presents and I am sure that helped prevent some of the outlaws from taking advantage of situations. He knew me by name and even told me to call him if I ever saw something not right going on. Since he has been out of the area I have heard so many illegal activities going on. The warden that replaced him was nice but you only would see him during ice fishing season. Then he moved away probably 2 years ago and was never replaced.

 

[FarmerDave]

Not to hijack, but I think Ohio only has one WCO per county and they cover fish and game.

PA has way more.

I actually bumped into one once on the Grand river. I can't remember if she checked my license or not. The only think I can remember is that she was hot.

 

[DriftingDunn]

During the Wild Trout Summit I recall the Executive Director saying that there is a WCO assigned to every portion of the state.

They may be a little thin here or there, but there is one assigned everywhere.

By the way, I've been fly fishing for over 40 years and I've never been checked by a fish warden. I have been checked by a few WCO's and their deputies, but never a fish warden.

I thought only bait anglers called them "fish wardens." 🙂

Now let's get back to the topic at hand...

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I haven't seen one in 30 years on the water or around any water I fish. Last time was when I was young on long run after someone kicked the hatchery gate down.

 

[KenU]

Thanks folks: This thread went on much longer and had far more replies than I ever imagined it would. I have started to summarize what is on there. That’s going to take some time.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Where's pcray to scientifically breakdown this subject.

 

[Chaz]

When planting trees and shrubs it's very important to plant natives. This is because the macro-invertabrates eat the natives detritus and not non native plant detritus. I heard a guy ask during a presentation recently about planting non natives, I felt like smacking him, but I was happy with the answer.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

"If the expectation is that these projects will improve fishing in the vicinity, I can understand why you would be disappointed in some of them. But I have not found that to be the motivator of the projects, its designers or the volunteers who contribute to them."
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Well as a trout fisherman that is exactly what I am getting at. And if we are talking habitat improvement then I would assume that means habitat for fish and the things they eat. What part am I missing? Serious question.

One thing I've seen very recently is the V shaped structures sitting high and dry. I understand that streams are low right now but wouldn;t that be the exact time when these structures should be creating deeper water etc?

I know of a very nice section of trout stream where i fished for many years. You could wade down the center of the stream and fish both edges. It was nice and deep along the edge and the overhanging plants created great cover. A group came in and put the v shaped structures all down both sides. They disturbed the banks and much of the vegetation is gone . And they destroyed the deep spots along the edges.

 

[FarmerDave]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
"If the expectation is that these projects will improve fishing in the vicinity, I can understand why you would be disappointed in some of them. But I have not found that to be the motivator of the projects, its designers or the volunteers who contribute to them."
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Well as a trout fisherman that is exactly what I am getting at. And if we are talking habitat improvement then I would assume that means habitat for fish and the things they eat. What part am I missing? Serious question.

Nothing.

However, I would be interesting in hearing explanations of those V structures you mentioned, and what is the intended benefit.

 

[bigjohn58]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
"If the expectation is that these projects will improve fishing in the vicinity, I can understand why you would be disappointed in some of them. But I have not found that to be the motivator of the projects, its designers or the volunteers who contribute to them."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well as a trout fisherman that is exactly what I am getting at. And if we are talking habitat improvement then I would assume that means habitat for fish and the things they eat. What part am I missing? Serious question.

One thing I've seen very recently is the V shaped structures sitting high and dry. I understand that streams are low right now but wouldn;t that be the exact time when these structures should be creating deeper water etc?

I know of a very nice section of trout stream where i fished for many years. You could wade down the center of the stream and fish both edges. It was nice and deep along the edge and the overhanging plants created great cover. A group came in and put the v shaped structures all down both sides. They disturbed the banks and much of the vegetation is gone . And they destroyed the deep spots along the edges.

Those V shape structures and some of the other man made structure really bothers me in stream restorations. I know what they are intended for but its so obvious they are man made and not natural. It kind of ruins the whole stream wild scenic experience for me.

 

[DaveS]

I can understand the lack of aesthetic appeal with man made stabilizing structures. If the alternative is an eroded bank which creates a broad shallow and likely sun lit stream, I'll take the deflector. Hopefully in time it gets grown over and becomes less obvious.

And I'm not a hydrologist, but I think those devices work in the higher flows of Spring time to move the bed load. But I could be mistaken.

After all, I am one of those feel good rock rollers and I' helped build a handful of deflectors too.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I built a bunch of them. I had a fulltime job for a summer working for the federal gov't doing nothing but filling the large gabion type and the v shaped. We built the log structures and pegged them in with rebar too. We traveled to many places all over the state. I returned to one of those streams last summer and looked at some of those devices and saw that many were washed out. Now these were over 30 years old and did not appear to have been maintained at all in that time from what I saw. We had built these on a well known stream in north central PA.

 

[CLSports]

1. Habitat
2. Habitat
3. Habitat

Or a more precise answer:

Habitat preservation
Habitat conservation
Habitat rehabilitation

Once you do this this the stream will thrive and the anglers will follow.

I have seen streams rebound that were simply left alone. Let the trees fall where they may, let the weeds and wildflowers grow. The best stream sections are those that are nearly impossible to access with thick vegetation. The fish will flourish in these areas. We cannot stop development, but we sure as hell can keep the stream buffers intact.

 

[FarmerDave]

CLSports wrote:
1. Habitat
2. Habitat
3. Habitat

Or a more precise answer:

Habitat preservation
Habitat conservation
Habitat rehabilitation

Yea, that is what I meant. ;-)

Seriously, I like that.

 

[troutbert]

The v-shaped structures are called cross-vanes. If you Google that term you'll find some info.

There are appropriate places to build them, and also inappropriate places.

You can see both in PA.

After McCoy Dam was removed, several cross-vanes were built. What would yinz have done instead of that?

 

[Chaz]

Cross veins are meant to channel flow usually toward the center of the stream, these kind of structures are usually ephemeral. They get blown out as soon as the next big flood.
What does work is planting trees, but even that has limitations. Some get eaten, some get washed away. But many will root and grow large shading the stream and when they fall they create more permanent habitat.
Notice I said more permanent, I use that term because streams are dynamic environments, and I laugh when people say the are doing a restoration when they mean something else. Well not really, but even large tress have a lifetime, they ofter have out lived us, and of the hundreds of trees and shrubs I planted along our watershed, I certainly hope even a few will out live me. If they do Perkiomen Creek and it's tributaries have a bright future.

 

[JackM]

Man the rock-roller, the stream channelizer, the.. the... man the tree-planter the rock-roller. I have more respect for a pebble at the bottom of a productive riffle than for man. He disgusts me.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

man the incessant tinkerer, the I know what's bester, man the sciencer, man the experter, man the action taker, the builderer, man the destroyerer, man the man

Many have mentioned trees. Possibly they are the best thing for our trout streams. Yesterday I took a long walk along a small trout stream and was amazed to see what role fallen trees play in creating some very nice habitat. And of course the shade they create is good. This stream did have some wide shallow areas but who can say they are not playing a role for good as well? I also saw many trout eating something on top and below. The fish were in shallow open areas and also under trees and in deep spots. As I walked along on a beautiful day I looked at the stream and thought there is nothing I would do to improve it.

 

[troutbert]

troutbert wrote:

After McCoy Dam was removed, several cross-vanes were built. What would yinz have done instead of that?

Anyone? Several people have posted negatively about habitat structures. So, what would you have done in a case like this?

This is not a unique case. I'm just choosing it as an example because it's a place that many people on here are familiar with.

Probably other people can think of other examples. Some others that come to mind are:

Spring Creek in Fishermans Paradise.

Spring Creek in the "Trench" below the park in Bellefonte. From the High Street bridge down to the next bridge.

Kettle Creek in Ole Bull State Park.

The Little Lehigh in the Parkway.

Or Valley Creek in that section upstream from Rt. 23 where the banks are very steep on both sides and the habitat is very poor.

Fishing Creek where it flows through Mill Hall.

What would you do in these places?