Done with Haverford Orvis

[Fly-Swatter]

I chose to not respond to such nonsense. I'll just have to accept that I'm a special snowflake.

Isn't "special snowflake" redundant?

Wait....am I one not, too? I'm confused.

 

[redietz]

The "lead ban" will be in PA soon enough. What starts in CA spreads like a cancer across the rest of the country.

It's been banned in NY state for some time, as well as Yellowstone Park.

 

[5footfenwick]

These are big money clientele shops.

Yes!
However it’s performing at a sub Kmart level. With sub Kmart customer service. And sub Kmart selection. That’s the point of his post. The man went to a steak house and was served some hotdog jerky for $15. They stopped serving steaks cause cows fart.

A business, attempting to force ideas onto others because they think they know better? If you support this you should be less concerned with the red in his hat and more concerned with the red in your flag. Maybe even the red in the scare you are giving us.

The shop brought politics into the consumer equation not Wildtrout2.

You brought politics into this discussion not Wildtrout2.
Let’s stick to the facts

 

[dudemanspecial]

A business, forcing ideas onto others because they think they know better?

While I agree with the premise of your post, I do take issue with this statement. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Orvis is free to sell whatever product they want, and Wildtrout2 is free to decide to buy it or not.

And it has nothing to do with them thinking they know better. Lead is extremely toxic to life and easily contaminates water. They made a choice to not sell it based off of actual science, not pseudoscience.

I do use lead because I don't really like the substitute stuff. I do so because I have that choice. I recognize the risks involved and do my absolute best to not lose it in the water or on the ground, but it happens sometimes. When I am forced to switch because of laws, then so be it, but as of now, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[hooker-of-men]

Am I the only one who thought the original post was about cost and condescending service and not at all about lead?

 

[dudemanspecial]

Am I the only one who thought the original post was about cost and condescending service and not at all about lead?

You are right. Since when do threads stay on topic 🤣

 

[5footfenwick]

I see what you are saying Dudemanspecial.
I needed the forced ideas to set up
My 1950’s red jokes. I’ll try harder next time.

Am I the only one who thought the original post was about cost and condescending service and not at all about lead?

But you hoookerofmen! Using lead in your post? In 2024? Lead can get stuck in a thread and kill it.

Sir This is a Fly fishing Forum. The only posts we offer are lead free and nontoxic.




Too Soon?

 

[hooker-of-men]

Typical. Another post parroting the Tungsten Agenda. And on our nation's birthday, no less. Despicable.

 

[5footfenwick]

And it has nothing to do with them thinking they know better. Lead is extremely toxic to life and easily contaminates water. They made a choice to not sell it based off of actual science, not pseudoscience.

Here is my take on the problem. I’ll try to clarify my reasoning on why I think that they think they know better. And how Zero “fishing” science is involved.
I’m just gonna think aloud.

I’m sure a lot of guys come to Orvis shops for fishing information. Fishing science. They think they are getting good advice on fishing. But they are instead getting good advice on conservation disguised as fishing science. Good advice on environmental chemistry disguised as fishing science. And getting terrible advice on fishing. Specifically catching fish.

I’m not running down to my local chem lab for fishing advice. Especially fishing advice disguised as Environmental Chemical advice.

Why am I getting chemistry conservation advice at my local fishing shop? Disguised as fishing advice?

That’s the problem. The bait and switch. You think you are in a fly fishing shop. But really you are in a conservation shop disguised as a fishing shop, peddling you pseudoscience fishing information.

Tin shot catches far fewer fish than lead. Tungsten catches more fish than lead. That’s science. Fishing Science. Because we are in a fishing shop. We assume these are experts on catching fish. I think by now they should all know about the shot collision acoustics. And their effects on fish attraction. And the science behind it. Maybe we all don’t. But a fly fishing store employee sure as heck should. When you have someone in a position like fly fishing shop salesman. And you go to him for advice and information. You expect he is gonna help you catch more fish. Not less. You expect he is gonna give you good fishing advice. Not bad fishing advice. You expect the shop is gonna carry the kind of shot that catches the most fish. Not the least. There’s nothing fishing science related about not carrying lead shot. Why wouldn’t they carry the shot that catches more fish? We didn’t come to shop here for conservation advice. It’s a Orvis shop. A fly fishing shop. Not a trout unlimited meeting.

IMO They definitely think they know better. If they didn’t, wouldn’t they carry lead? If they honestly thought they could leave the decision up to you. And you would know better and pick the tin. Then why aren’t they doing that? Why aren’t they informing you of how many less fish you will catch? Instead they are pushing products that catch less fish.

IMHO Their job is to accurately inform the customer and let them make a decision based on that information. But they have instead chosen to remove the accurate fishing information from you and remove the decision from you.

That’s why I said they think they know better. They are pushing products that scientifically catch less fish and withholding the science behind why they catch less fish in order to virtue signal to you their ideals and beliefs.

It could be I’m completely wrong and you are right Dudemanspecial. This is just what I was thinking.

Maybe I’m beating a lead horse here.

 

[dudemanspecial]

Here is my take on the problem. I’ll try to clarify my reasoning on why I think that they think they know better. And how Zero “fishing” science is involved.
I’m just gonna think aloud.

I’m sure a lot of guys come to Orvis shops for fishing information. Fishing science. They think they are getting good advice on fishing. But they are instead getting good advice on conservation disguised as fishing science. Good advice on environmental chemistry disguised as fishing science. And getting terrible advice on fishing. Specifically catching fish.

I’m not running down to my local chem lab for fishing advice. Especially fishing advice disguised as Environmental Chemical advice.

Why am I getting chemistry conservation advice at my local fishing shop? Disguised as fishing advice?

That’s the problem. The bait and switch. You think you are in a fly fishing shop. But really you are in a conservation shop disguised as a fishing shop, peddling you pseudoscience fishing information.

Tin shot catches far fewer fish than lead. Tungsten catches more fish than lead. That’s science. Fishing Science. Because we are in a fishing shop. We assume these are experts on catching fish. I think by now they should all know about the shot collision acoustics. And their effects on fish attraction. And the science behind it. Maybe we all don’t. But a fly fishing store employee sure as heck should. When you have someone in a position like fly fishing shop salesman. And you go to him for advice and information. You expect he is gonna help you catch more fish. Not less. You expect he is gonna give you good fishing advice. Not bad fishing advice. You expect the shop is gonna carry the kind of shot that catches the most fish. Not the least. There’s nothing fishing science related about not carrying lead shot. Why wouldn’t they carry the shot that catches more fish? We didn’t come to shop here for conservation advice. It’s a Orvis shop. A fly fishing shop. Not a trout unlimited meeting.

IMO They definitely think they know better. If they didn’t, wouldn’t they carry lead? If they honestly thought they could leave the decision up to you. And you would know better and pick the tin. Then why aren’t they doing that? Why aren’t they informing you of how many less fish you will catch? Instead they are pushing products that catch less fish.

IMHO Their job is to accurately inform the customer and let them make a decision based on that information. But they have instead chosen to remove the accurate fishing information from you and remove the decision from you.

That’s why I said they think they know better. They are pushing products that scientifically catch less fish and withholding the science behind why they catch less fish in order to virtue signal to you their ideals and beliefs.

It could be I’m completely wrong and you are right Dudemanspecial. This is just what I was thinking.

Maybe I’m beating a lead horse here.

I think its probably more because Vermont (their home base), New York, New Hampshire and Maine have all banned lead so they just said to hell with it, but you certainly have a theory.

Also FYI the reason it is banned is bird mortality over fish science.

 

[dudemanspecial]

The "lead ban" will be in PA soon enough. What starts in CA spreads like a cancer across the rest of the country.

After doing some research on the subject I have discovered lead is not banned in CA. It is a Northeast thing mainly, plus Washington state and Yellowstone area.

 

[5footfenwick]

I think its probably more because Vermont (their home base), New York, New Hampshire and Maine have all banned lead so they just said to hell with it, but you certainly have a theory.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Yeah that’s a great point I hadn’t thought of. Im sure you are right, the Vermont ban got the ball rolling on the direction they wanted to head. I told you I’d try harder next time. Sorry for the long post. I couldn’t sleep and was bored.

Also FYI the reason it is banned is bird mortality over fish science

I completely agree with you on the science behind lead being toxic and bad for the environment. I realize my post comes off like I don’t care about conservation. I promise I do. It’s more the way they guilt trip you and force you into a ****s sporting goods or a Walmart if you do want to buy lead that bothers me. How can they attempt to educate lead shot using fisherman if they exclude their products from their shelves? If that is even their goal.

Bird mortality is certainly no less important than fish science. I’m sure the thought process is lead isn’t necessary to flyfish. So the bird lives matter movement wins out.

I guess I was just thinking the average beginner guy goes to an Orvis shop thinking they are gonna help up his game. But he is told he isn’t an ethical fisherman. Felt soles, 7x tippet, and lead shot. 2 hours in a confessional booth later he returns to the store. But he leaves with rubber soled boots so he doesn’t spread invasives. Just to slide around on slippery rocks spooking fish. While using the recommended 1x tippet as to not play the fish to exhaustion. Unfortunately the tin shot the size of Rhode Island spooks the remaining fish that weren’t spooked by the thick tippet and he takes the skunk. Some say if you listen close you can still hear him taking the skunk to this day. Conservation science definitely.100% ……….Fish catching science….. not so much in my opinion

 

[mt_flyfisher]

It’s hard to believe that this thread has gotten well over 100 replies, with a couple of you guys still posting on it in the middle of the night. Don’t you guys ever sleep?😴

FYI, and speaking of sleeping, the REEL news isn’t what’s going on at the Orvis store in Haverford anyway, but is at the Mattress Firm located just across the street. (Which, take note, was founded on July 4th, 1986)

Just 2 days ago the FTC unanimously blocked the $4 billion merger of mattress giants Tempur Sealy and Mattress Firm. (So, if you’re not going to shop anymore at the Haverford Orvis store, for the time being you”ll probably have the Mattress Store to fill your sleeping needs across the street.)

And, now back to your lead shot discussion, in progress.

 

[goose54cdd]

People that look different than me.
People that look like me.
Me.

 

[simpliFly]

Typical. Another post parroting the Tungsten Agenda. And on our nation's birthday, no less. Despicable.

And there it is - Freedom! Politics.

Let’s stick to the facts

Which are? Lead is toxic. Putting something toxic in our fisheries for sport is . . . not good. Orvis has decided not to sell lead shot. They are not preventing you from buying it. They just don’t want to sell it. You are free to shop elsewhere. They are free not to sell it. Those are facts.

I’m not running down to my local chem lab for fishing advice. Especially fishing advice disguised as Environmental Chemical advice.

Why am I getting chemistry conservation advice at my local fishing shop? Disguised as fishing advice?

That’s the problem. The bait and switch. You think you are in a fly fishing shop. But really you are in a conservation shop disguised as a fishing shop, peddling you pseudoscience fishing information.

You don’t go into Sherman Williams for a chemistry lesson, but they won’t sell you lead based paint either.
You don’t to Home Depot for a chemistry lesson, but they won’t sell you DDT to spray for mosquitos.

IMHO Their job is to accurately inform the customer and let them make a decision based on that information. But they have instead chosen to remove the accurate fishing information from you and remove the decision from you.

Is lead not toxic? Have they lied or mis-stated something? Again, you want your freedom to buy a toxic product AND you want to limit Orvis freedom to not sell it - force Orvis to sell it.

 

[rancid waders]

Thank god I'm good on shot for the next 5 years.

 

[Fredrick]

Today, I went into the Orvis store in Haverford, just to pick up some split shot. It's only ten mins from my home. Anyway, as I'm looking at their selection, an employee comes over and asks if he can help me. I said "I'm just looking for some spit shot, but I'd rather not spend $15 on it". The fellow says "this is a fly shop and we sell non-toxic split shot". I felt like saying, "oh, this is a fly shop?" I thanked him for his time and I left.

This is a store where I've probably spent no less than $1000 on various items over the years it's been there. Waders and wading boots account for the bulk of my spending there. But, I don't need an employee reminding me what type of store I'm in. I've been going there for a long while, and this may have been a new employee who doesn't know any better. Either way, I didn't care for the comment, so I won't be shopping there again.
I continued up the road to the Bryn Mawr TCO, where I got the split shot I wanted for $5, and I had a pleasant conversation about Valley Creek with one of the employees. Anyone else get rubbed the wrong way at an Orvis museum, I mean store?

I can point you to a few places in Chinatown that help you relieve some of that tension

 

[troutbert]

This thread is pretty well "shot."

Also, it's toxic.

 

[Sylvaneous]

who tracks us down like a heat seeking Patriot missile

I think Patriots are radar guided. I don't think heat-seeking would work with a missle interceptor. Up the tail-pipe isn't as effective when the target isn't a manned aircraft.
But I digress...
Patriots ARE accurate and very fast. So yes, Like religion, the statement is true in its thrust.
Syl

 

[Sylvaneous]

Toro is the only brand I’d put close to the same league as Honda for gas, residential use mowers, but it’s been a few years since I’ve seen a new Toro mower offered with a Honda motor on it. They’ve been using Briggs the last number of years. Briggs are just ok, but there’s no question Honda motors are more reliable, easier to maintain, and easier to start.

I got my Cub Cadet riding mower because it had a Kawaski engine. It's odd how Kawasaki has gone into (onto) bigger equipment, but not push mowers and Honda only went into push mowers. My departed father was a big believer in Honda mowers and owned 3 in his life, going back to the mid/early 80's. One of the few pleasures I had as a teen was being able to use a Honda mower. Dad would mow maybe 3 times a week when he retired. I mowed neighbors' yards for LAUGHABLY low prices. That is a LOT of work for a mower.
But I digress....
But that is life, the digression.
Syl