DHALO proposal

[PennKev]

streamerguy wrote:

The new proposal will cause a big spike in pressure on the DHALO's in late May and June. Many fish will get killed......but don't worry, the resource is being "utilized"

.....and does nothing nothing to "utilize" the thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of trout that remain in the ATW's throughout the state. The fish commission doesn't care about all those wasted fish, but it wanted to encourage harvest in the DHALO areas???????

Of course Mike will tell us how we should be fishing for those fish and how great fishing is in non-special regs areas.

Perhaps he and the others at the PAFBC would be be better served by focusing on how to increase angler usage on the general regs ATW than screwing with areas that are very popular due to their current regs. Furthermore, at the same time stocking has and will continue to occur on Class As due to "social reasons." However, now social reasons don't seem to matter in the case of the DHALO regs proposal. It doesn't fit their agenda. Now they bang the drum of "utilization" while they stock streams that don't need it and thousands of fish die in ATW with almost zero angling pressure after the beginning of may.

It's pretty messed up.

Why not just raise the daily limit on ATW's to 7 (or whatever)? It requires no changes to regulations other than the limit and it would affect many more waterways ( more "opportunities") thus being more available to more anglers. Not to mention that more fish would in fact be harvested since more could be kept in the first few weeks of the season.

Ta-da!!!!! Utilization without pissing off loyal license buyers.

Kev

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Quote: streamerguy wrote: The new proposal will cause a big spike in pressure on the DHALO's in late May and June. Many fish will get killed......but don't worry, the resource is being "utilized" .....and does nothing nothing to "utilize" the thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of trout that remain in the ATW's throughout the state. The fish commission doesn't care about all those wasted fish, but it wanted to encourage harvest in the DHALO areas??????? Of course Mike will tell us how we should be fishing for those fish and how great fishing is in non-special regs areas. Perhaps he and the others at the PAFBC would be be better served by focusing on how to increase angler usage on the general regs ATW than screwing with areas that are very popular due to their current regs. Furthermore, at the same time stocking has and will continue to occur on Class As due to "social reasons." However, now social reasons don't seem to matter in the case of the DHALO regs proposal. It doesn't fit their agenda. Now they bang the drum of "utilization" while they stock streams that don't need it and thousands of fish die in ATW with almost zero angling pressure after the beginning of may. It's pretty messed up. Why not just raise the daily limit on ATW's to 7 (or whatever)? It requires no changes to regulations other than the limit and it would affect many more waterways ( more "opportunities") thus being more available to more anglers. Not to mention that more fish would in fact be harvested since more could be kept in the first few weeks of the season. Ta-da!!!!! Utilization without pissing off loyal license buyers. Kev

Yes yes yes and yes.
Too much sense

 

[streamerguy]

Well, like I said, it varies by stream. I'm sure there's tons of fish that don't get harvested and are left to die in streams that get very warm. But at the same time there's also many ATWs out there that are capable of holding over fish, or at least capable of having quality fishing in late spring and the beginning of the summer......but they suffer greatly from overharvest.

The whole system is messed up.....and isn't getting any better.

If I was in charge, I would create many more special regs areas. Like a lot more.....to the point where they're not "special" anymore. In the perfect world I'd have specific regs for every stream......but that would be complicated and wouldn't work well. Enforcement would be very tough. There's lots of streams that get toasty and are perfect for the opening day catch 'em and rope 'em gig, and there's lots of streams that can have good fishing through most of the year.

There should be a lot more fall stockings.......but the PFBC is short on money and fish.....I wonder why(cough cough....wasting them on good wild streams....cough cough)

 

[streamerguy]

The PFBC needs to advertise the ATWs that get warm yet still have lots of fish left, rather than harm the DHALOs. Kev's idea of raising the limit may work(on the streams that get very warm in the summer).

 

[streamerguy]

So over the past couple years the PFBC took away a stocking on a river I fish that can offer great fishing, and has amazing hatches. They are now stocking a small nearby lake that is shallow and warms up very fast instead. The river also gets warm by July, but the fishing can be great from late Sept. until July and has consistent flows(oh yeah, they decreased the fall stocking #s as well).

Logic!!

 

[troutfanatic]

penn kev and streamerguy

I like what you are saying here, but I am not fully versed on this. Does this have a lot of momentum? Someone mentioned putting hatchery fish on wild water... is that happening too? I thought that was only a proposal too.

Bear with me. I only fish in PA a dozen times a year or so and that will be the norm until I move back after I retire from the Army.

If they are willing to do this to get more kids fishing (which I don't believe will happen), what are they doing for the devout fly fisherman? Are they classifying more sections as FF only C&R?

There is a nice tailwater I fish in VA. It has a large population of wild browns and they stock triploid rainbows over top of them. They are keep 5 a day 7" (or something like that. I don't keep them so I don't care). The browns are different. They have a slot that is protected 10-24" goes back in. It's nice but I know locals keep whatever they want. The logic "my grandaddy kept them and so am I".

I remember doing opening day with my dad and grandfather when I was a kid. I caught my stringer full of trout, gutted them myself and took them home to the freezer. They sat for three months until my mother tossed them. I suspect this happens a lot too.

 

[PennKev]

Streamerguy,

The thing is that the streams that get cleaned out are generally the smaller streams that get relatively few fish stocked compared to big streams like Oil, Sugar, Neshannock, Slippery Rock, etc. All of these streams have plenty of fish remaining when summer rolls around.

You are comparing streams that get hundreds of fish stocked to streams that get thousands of fish. Now, collectively, those small streams get a ton of fish, but on an individual basis they don't get that many. Combine the limited number of fish in these streams with stream size and structure that encourages easy harvest and its no surprise that particular streams get cleaned out.

I really don't have a problem with stocking small streams per se, I do however have a problem with stocking over wild populations and stocking in situations were it creates a fishery limited to a few weeks or even days of the year. Both of these things occur on small stream..

Additionally, I have mentioned before, I would not be upset if the fish commission reduced the number of in season stockings on larger creeks. I've had excellent fishing on the streams I mentioned prior to and up to the final in season stocking and had ludicrous fishing afterwards. I would not be upset if that final stocking was removed and from what I have seen I doubt many would even notice if these stockings were removed as I almost never see anyone else fishing at this time in the open ATW areas. Stocking these fish earlier in the year or not all would both be ways to minimize waste.

If minimizing waste, and increasing utilization were truly the goals of the PAFBC there are better ways to go about. It really leaves a lot of questions about the PAFBC's true motivations for these proposed changes.

 

[troutfanatic]

Penn Kev
Isn't Slippery Rock capable of holding fish year round? I also heard rumors of some reproduction amongst browns. I have no idea if it is true as I have never caught anything under 7-8" out of it.

 

[CRB]

 

[PennKev]

troutfanatic wrote:
Penn Kev
Isn't Slippery Rock capable of holding fish year round? I also heard rumors of some reproduction amongst browns. I have no idea if it is true as I have never caught anything under 7-8" out of it.

There is some holdover potential in the main stem, but the numbers of fish vary from spot to spot due to localized habitat. Out of the streams I mentioned SRC probably gets the warmest and does so on the most consistent basis from year to year. There is some natural reproduction in certain tribs but this has virtually no effect on the fishing in the creek itself. With all that said, in a year with a mild summer many fish do remain in the creek year round, but even then some knowledge of where to find them is needed.

 

[troutfanatic]

I fished it heavily as a kid, but I was more into the smallmouth and rock bass. Trout were a target of opportunity. I will still hit the Heinz Camp area once in awhile but I have other places to go that I can get better results. I do need to re-learn some streams and find a few new ones. If we go by the wife's timetable, we'll be back in SWPA by the fall of 2016.

Okay, I'm getting us off topic...

Thanks

 

[brookieaddict]

The only way they'll get new kids envolved is open it up to hand grenade fishing. Visit the TCO web site and vote against baiting on the Tully please, ya never know the nimcomepoops in Hbg. just might listen.

 

[Mike]

PennKev: "Furthermore, at the same time stocking has and will continue to occur on Class As due to "social reasons." However, now social reasons don't seem to matter in the case of the DHALO regs proposal. It doesn't fit their agenda. Now they bang the drum of "utilization" while they stock streams that don't need it and thousands of fish die in ATW with almost zero angling pressure after the beginning of may."

PennKev, within your paragraph above is an anti-waste theme that I agree with. It is disconcerting to me to see stocked trout being underutilized (low angler trips following a stocking in comparison to the number of trout being stocked). It is 1) wasteful to have so many stocked trout remaining in streams long after most anglers have left, 2) have large numbers of trout remain in streams that are too warm during the summer months for the trout to feed, bite, or largely remain in good condition, including when they get jammed into small thermal refugia relative to the numbers of trout stocked, or 3) that are too warm to allow survival due to prolonged/repeated or acute temperature stress. It does not matter whether these are standard ATW's , stocked Class A streams (#1 above), or DH Areas.

For my part, when I learn that specific ATW's are being overstocked and underutilized, I take action to correct the problem, often by requiring stockings to be moved forward to earlier dates, by eliminating an inseason stocking, or by reducing the numbers of trout being stocked inseason and/or preseason. I have also removed streams from the stocking program due to low opening day angler usage despite nice weather. Additionally, across the state high access streams (good parking, close to roads, little posting) receive higher stocking rates than those with opposite characteristics because of the lower angler usage associated with those opposite characteristics. This cuts down on waste and shifts fish to waters where they are more likely to be well-utilized.

As for those 10 Class A's, the data that I saw from the Lehigh Valley ones showed increasing wild trout populations over the years and low numbers of stocked trout remaining by the time of the summer electrofishing surveys. The apparent harvest validated the good angler use counts.

If anglers know of streams such as those that you have described I would encourage them to report such streams to their respective Area Fisheries Managers for action.

 

[PennKev]

Then correct the problem and encourage your superiors to eliminate waste without upsetting loyal license holders. There is obviously room to ido so in where when and how trout are stocked.

The current DHALO's contain only a small percentage of all the trout currently being stocked by the fish commission. Thus any trout that go unharvested in DHALO areas are a small percentage of the total trout stocked. Yet rather than try to take a big bite out of the waste by limiting how many trout go "unutilized" in open ATW's the PAFBC would rather upset a very passionate group of license holders targeting the relatively small number of trout not being harvest in the DHALO.

The justifications for the proposal simply do not make sense when there are more widespread changes that could be made that would achieve the same goals and do so more effectively. Particularly when it comes to the commissions desire to see stocked trout go "unwasted".

However, the bottom line is that our DHALO areas are very popular and anglers, myself included, are very satisfied with how they are regulated. We see no reason to change them and we would rather not take the risk, even if some of our fears are unjustified. What if the earlier harvest period does spur a 2nd Opening Day? What if allowing bait by certain people at certain times does create increased mortality and an enforcement nightmare?

Sure you and the PAFBC may tell us that none of these things are very likely to happen but we view this as a slippery slope and we would rather not find out. We would rather be safe than sorry.

We know the current regs work, and we know what they create, and we like it. I know that on a mild day in mid June I can be at the local DHALO in minutes and fishing over a good number of trout. Is it better than other areas of the same stream?

Simply, yes. The trout are float stocked and nicely distributed due to it being a DHALO area. Many larger trout are stocked by private sources and add variety to the fishing experience, because it is a DHALO. The local TU devotes it's resources, including a co-op hatchery, to the stream because it is DHALO. Landowners allow walk in access because there is less worry about litter, becuase it is a DHALO.

It might be easy for someone at a PAFBC office to overlook these factors, but there is more at stake for those of us that fish and care about these areas. Sure, when its all said and done, they are just stocked streams, but they have become ours and many have devoted their time, effort, and money to ensure that they offer something other than the normal put and take experience that is widespread in the state.

 

[bikerfish]

YEAH!!! WHAT KEV SAID!!!!!!!!

 

[streamerguy]

From the Notice....which you can read here

In the 31 years since the program began, angler attitudes, preferences and interest in stocked trout fishing have changed as evidenced by on-the-water angler interviews conducted by
Commission biologists as well as data from contracted statewide trout angler telephone surveys conducted in 1991 and 2008

Has anyone on here been surveyed in '91 or '08? And has the PFBC done anything more recently to find out what us loyal license buyers think about the current state of stocked trout fishing??

the Commission has determined that modifications to the DHALO Program can be made that will simplify the regulation,

If the PFBC truly thinks this simplifies the regs.....I'm out. Packing up and moving to Montana tomorrow.....

increase angler success for stocked trout

Bingo! More fish put on stringers and taken out of the stream = higher success rates for other anglers. Who would have thought!!

allow for a more efficient use of expensive hatchery raised trout and encourage use by more anglers.

Trout being available to be caught in late spring, summer, and the following fall = getting your money's worth out of an expensive hatchery trout.

Encourage use by more anglers. How about encouraging more anglers to fish the streams that get warmer, faster. Advertise those streams and utilize those fish before they die

This proposed change is intended to increase angler participation, increase angling success and improve utilization of stocked trout prior to their loss to natural mortality.

Has the PFBC ever electrofished these DHALOs to really find out how many fish make it through the summer? I'm sure it varies by stream, but I know the DHALOs I fish hold over trout.

The length limit change will be the same as the statewide minimum length limit. Because the length of stocked trout exceeds 10 inches, a change in the length limit from 9 inches to 7 inches will have no effect on the harvest of these fish.

They should just make the statewide length limit 10in for all waters..

 

[streamerguy]

What bikerfish said

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

What streamer guy said

 

[CRB]

Mr Arway,
I think it is time you answer the questions asked on this board instead of a regional Area Fisheries Manager.

 

[streamerguy]

PennKev wrote:
Out of the streams I mentioned SRC probably gets the warmest and does so on the most consistent basis from year to year.

I don't have a lot of experience on SRC, and I'm not too familiar with what sections of it tend to be warmer than others, but if it's true that SRC probably gets the warmest out of the bunch, then......

Why doesn't the PFBC let people start keeping fish from the C&R section there?? It would make sense for the people to "utilize" the fish there instead of the DHALOs on the cooler streams(unless the C&R FFO is one of those sections of SR that remains cooler..)

Just something else to think about....