Challenge to all Trout Camps

[silverfox]

Respectfully, and from a relatively neutral perspective in observing these threads (I too agree with the 95% of common ground), while focusing on the 5% difference you guys are missing the forest for the trees.

You think the master baiter camp that wants truckloads of Stockies dumped into the most easily accessed pools of the wild Trout stream running by their camp or club fight amongst themselves like this? They don’t. Heck, I’m a member of a fishing/hunting camp where the majority thinks like this. They don’t care what species gets stocked, they don’t care about the impact to wild Trout. They only care about getting fish dumped in a couple days before the opener, so they can go up to camp, get away from their wives for a few days, walk to the hole behind camp on opening day, spend 90 minutes yanking fish out until they get bored, or cold, or both, and are back in the cabin by 10:00 playing cards, eating deer bologna, and drinking beer. They don’t fish again (for Trout) until 365 days later. This situation mirrors itself at thousands of camps/clubs across the state.

They keep it quite simple, and united with the neighboring camps…”Stop stocking, and we all post.” Period. And this is the camp that is presently beating us in terms of getting their voice heard. My humble suggestion is that this is the bigger opponent than the 5% difference you guys have spent months on here arguing over. Maybe you guys are all over on paspincasters.com, or whatever, giving them hell. I dunno.

We all agree on far more than we disagree on. So where do we go from here? What would be an effective approach to dealing with all the common issues?

 

[krayfish2]

This question is posed in 100% seriousness....

You have 12 high quality streams that contain a mix of 75% heritage strain brook trout and 25% invasive brown trout. These 12 streams flows into a much much larger stream that is stocked for the opening day enjoyment of everyone. With stocking of the larger river for the last 50 years, there have been a few holdovers that started to spawn. For sake of argument, they are browns. These fish have evolved to use the larger river to forage and move great distance to find food, spawn and seek thermal refuge.

If you make those 12 into brook trout only habitats by removing all the browns, how do you plan on keeping stocked fish or the population of roaming browns from invading or reestablishing in the brook trout stream again?

Are you going to shock it every 6 months and to the browns? Are you going to have policy of brown trout harvest no size minimum? Are you going to install a barrier to keep other fish from entering that stream? I just don't see how it is possible to restrict the movement of other fish. Mother Nature and Father Time are both undefeated.

 

[Swattie87]

That’s a lot of math kray. A lot of us here (myself included) still fly fish with bobbers sometimes.

 

[Stenonema]

At extreme risk, lol. I'll try to spell out my own viewpoint.

I am for wild trout. Browns, brookies, rainbows. And on 95% of projects they aren't going to conflict. Now for the nuance. Yes, of those, brookies should recieve preference where it is feasible.

Feasible..... While I recognize that, for instance, the LJR, once held brookies, and who knows, one may turn up now and then even today. Browns have displaced them. They are the more aggressive, more dominant species in that particular environment. They won. I believe that any effort to eradicate the browns from the LJR is doomed to fail. You are going to ruin an absolutely fantastic wild trout resource, attempt to establish brookies, maybe even have a modicum of success in getting a few to grow. But while you do this it's gonna suck as a fishery, turn a whole lotta people against you for ruining their favorite river, and make you and your cause public enemy #1. And the moment you look away, browns are going to take it back over anyway. I am perfectly happy with saying the LJR, with wild browns in it, is a valuable resource I want to protect.

And substitute the LJR with, frankly, MOST wild brown streams in this fair state. In no way would I advocate any sort of mass statewide policy of taking out browns in efforts to restore brookies. Not because I don't see brookies as more important, I do. But I value the browns too, I don't think it'll work, and all you'll do is screw up an already good fishery failing to make a better one. It's like having a wonderful wife, and throwing her away to try for someone a little better, even though you know you won't succeed and you'll end up with nobody!

But take out the policy/fisherman in me and I do see brook trout as the conservation priority. We need to pay extra attention to protecting those headwater streams where brookies still thrive. That will have benefits downstream too. I agree that the PFBC should have some brook trout specific policies, if for no other reason than public awareness and education. In another thread I said 1. stop stocking over brookies and 2. make brookies C&R statewide. I would absolutely support that. It says nothing about removing browns, or don't pay attention to browns, or anything of the sort. And yes, in an ideal scenario, if it were feasible to replace a mixed population with brookies only, I think it should be done. Even if as an experiment. Upper Kettle was mentioned. I'm not talking about ending the stocking throughout the entire length of Kettle. I'm saying it has a barrier, Ole Bull. A fence on the fish ladder will do nicely. Above that barrier there are browns, and brookies, already battling it out. And plenty of interconnected tribs with brookies. That's an ideal place to run such a thing, to try to tip the scales in favor of the brookies. Shock out the browns, encourage their harvest, make brookies C&R. Advertise the crap out of it, show the public you are serious about protecting brook trout above all other. Restore this particular system for brookies, because it actually stands a chance of success.

But yes, I still believe our brown trout water is valuable and worthy of conservation efforts as well, and if anyone has a project to restore, enhance, or protect a wild brown trout stream, sign me up, I'm your ally.

We all agree on far more than we disagree on. So where do we go from here? What would be an effective approach to dealing with all the common issues?

The point of the post. To first identity the common.

 

[pcray1231]

They keep it quite simple, and united with the neighboring camps…”Stop stocking, and we all post.” Period. And this is the camp that is presently beating us in terms of getting their voice heard. My humble suggestion is that this is the bigger opponent than the 5% difference you guys have spent months on here arguing over.

Which is a much quicker way of making my point. Silver and Fishsticks are well informed and well intentioned. And they aren't wrong from a biology/environmentalist point of view.

But they're the minority. You can't swing for the fences when you don't have enough power to get it done, you just end up popping out. The better approach is to accumulate allies wherever you can. That means teaming up with those conservationists who are prioritizing the social benefits of fisheries over the biological ones. People who agree with 95% of your agenda and will team up with you to hit singles, even if you disagree on some finer points of the end goal.

 

[silverfox]

This question is posed in 100% seriousness....

You have 12 high quality streams that contain a mix of 75% heritage strain brook trout and 25% invasive brown trout. These 12 streams flows into a much much larger stream that is stocked for the opening day enjoyment of everyone. With stocking of the larger river for the last 50 years, there have been a few holdovers that started to spawn. For sake of argument, they are browns. These fish have evolved to use the larger river to forage and move great distance to find food, spawn and seek thermal refuge.

If you make those 12 into brook trout only habitats by removing all the browns, how do you plan on keeping stocked fish or the population of roaming browns from invading or reestablishing in the brook trout stream again?

Are you going to shock it every 6 months and to the browns? Are you going to have policy of brown trout harvest no size minimum? Are you going to install a barrier to keep other fish from entering that stream? I just don't see how it is possible to restrict the movement of other fish. Mother Nature and Father Time are both undefeated.

You don't. There's no point in attempting something like that where it won't work.

NPS explored this exact scenario in central PA and deemed it had too low of a probability of success and walked.

I'd never suggest attempting something like that in the scenario you laid out.

 

[silverfox]

The point of the post. To first identity the common.

stocking and environmental issues.

 

[Swattie87]

We all agree on far more than we disagree on. So where do we go from here? What would be an effective approach to dealing with all the common issues?

Be as united and keep it as simple as the stocker guys do. “We want wild Trout protected, and Brook Trout prioritized when and wherever possible AND practical.” Don’t get into the weeds beyond that when advocating for policy change that supports that general cause.

One good thing. The mentality of PA Trout anglers is changing. The majority of the “master baiter” crowd in my camp are the older guys, whose historic Trout fishing experiences and positive memories are centered around stocking and opening day, before the knowledge of naturally reproducing Trout in PA was widespread. I think some of them STILL actually think all Trout in PA come from the truck, and a small wild Trout is a “shortie” that got mixed in by mistake. The younger guys are wild Trout fans. I think this is fairly common and over time, I think a common cause for the support of wild Trout (Brookies more specifically, where possible and practical) over stocking will continue to gain momentum.

 

[silverfox]

Be as united and keep it as simple as the stocker guys do. “We want wild Trout protected, and Brook Trout prioritized when and wherever possible AND practical.” Don’t get into the weeds beyond that when advocating for policy change that supports that general cause.

One good thing. The mentality of PA Trout anglers is changing. The majority of the “master baiter” crowd in my camp are the older guys, whose historic Trout fishing experiences and positive memories are centered around stocking and opening day. The younger guys are wild Trout fans. I think this is fairly common and over time, I think a common cause for the support of wild Trout (Brookies more specifically, where possible and practical) over stocking will continue to gain momentum.

I agree, and the reality is, that's exactly what's happening. All over the east coast we're working with conservation organizations, watershed associations, riverkeepers, environmentalists, and others on common goals. That's the only way things move forward.

 

[pcray1231]

One good thing. The mentality of PA Trout anglers is changing. The majority of the “master baiter” crowd in my camp are the older guys, whose historic Trout fishing experiences and positive memories are centered around stocking and opening day. The younger guys are wild Trout fans. I think this is fairly common and over time, I think a common cause for the support of wild Trout (Brookies more specifically, where possible and practical) over stocking will continue to gain momentum.

Yes, it is.

And my major point is that the PFBC should recognize their responsibility in encouraging and leading that change. It's going to take a generation to get there.

But it's not the conservation organizations, watershed associations, riverkeepers, environmentalists, and others that are pushing that change. Look at all of them. They consist of primarily old men, meeting in person. Good people, but the prior generation's minority, and they aren't getting the message to the younger generation. It's not the PFBC either, though they should be, but they are the ones that conditioned the prior generation to believe that all trout come from trucks. Yes, they still have influence.

But the change is coming about via social media. Avid fishermen like all of us talking amongst each other, on facebook, on message boards. Social media creates enthusiasts. Enthusiasts search the far corners of the state and find wild trout everywhere, that have been hidden for years by the PFBC and other media. They may not say the exact location, but they post it, with pictures of beautiful wild fish on facebook, talk about their experiences on message boards like this one, go to work and tell everyone what a good time they had. And when someone they talk to, someone who fancies themselves a fishermen but really only fishes for 1 month a year and thinks that's all there is in the trout world, sees this. See's pictures of big, wild, beautiful looking trout, caught in like August? From somewhere close to them? Oh my God, they had no idea that even existed!!!! Because it's been hidden from them by the PFBC for so long. They go out and look for it, and find it, and fall in love with it. And then they convert another. And all these converts have kids and teach their kids.

It's about information. Telling the world that wild trout exist. Right here. Minutes from home. That there are more wild fish in your neighborhood than there are stocked ones. That you can do it all year long. The PFBC needs to encourage that, to actively go out and highlight it, make it the main focus of their mission and outward facing identity, to get people off of the truck and aware of what is around them. It's a good change and PFBC wind behind it will accelerate it. But it's happening with or without them.

In time this will create conservationists, create people who care about wild and yes, native fish. It is doing so, it's just slow.

 

[Stenonema]

I didn't "go back here."

So what is the plan? I think we've established the common issues. What's the next step? What are you proposing?

You know what I'm proposing. You know the plan. You have always known the plan and what I am proposing. You don't remember the conversations?
I haven't changed. I'm trying to stick with the plan that we discussed to get stocking stopped over all wild trout. You know the plan. Stop with the show. Put the need to achieve the common goal a little higher or change your goal of testing me to protecting wild trout.
There is no place on earth where there is a greater opportunity to study the impacts of stocking over wild trout.
There is no place on earth that stands to gain more by that understanding.
Once we understand the greatest negative impact stocking represents to our wild trout can we stock responsibly.
I believe stocking leads to stunting and resident fish. I believe because the Brown trout lives longer and grows larger it would be beneficial to study as the impacts of stocking would be most observable and demonstrable.
I believe that as a result of stocking brown trout compete with the brook trout year round both as juvenile and adult.
Perhaps the Brook trout is impacted the same way. I challenge anyone to prove that stocking does not lead to the stunting of our brook trout.
I respect the PFBC's role in our wild trout management by considering their needs by acknowledging the need for a strong selling point to bring anglers around to the thought of a different management.

What are you and your organization proposing? Maybe I could get behind it.

 

[silverfox]

Yes, it is.

And my major point is that the PFBC should recognize their responsibility in encouraging and leading that change. It's going to take a generation to get there.

But it's not the conservation organizations, watershed associations, riverkeepers, environmentalists, and others that are pushing that change. Look at all of them. They consist of primarily old men, meeting in person. Good people, but the prior generation's minority, and they aren't getting the message to the younger generation. It's not the PFBC either, though they should be, but they are the ones that conditioned the prior generation to believe that all trout come from trucks. Yes, they still have influence.

But the change is coming about via social media. Avid fishermen like all of us talking amongst each other, on facebook, on message boards. Social media creates enthusiasts. Enthusiasts search the far corners of the state and find wild trout everywhere, that have been hidden for years by the PFBC and other media. They may not say the exact location, but they post it, with pictures of beautiful wild fish on facebook, talk about their experiences on message boards like this one, go to work and tell everyone what a good time they had. And when someone they talk to, someone who fancies themselves a fishermen but really only fishes for 1 month a year and thinks that's all there is in the trout world, sees this. See's pictures of big, wild, beautiful looking trout, caught in like August? From somewhere close to them? Oh my God, they had no idea that even existed!!!! Because it's been hidden from them by the PFBC for so long. They go out and look for it, and find it, and fall in love with it. And then they convert another. And all these converts have kids and teach their kids.

It's about information. Telling the world that wild trout exist. Right here. Minutes from home. That there are more wild fish in your neighborhood than there are stocked ones. That you can do it all year long. The PFBC needs to encourage that, to actively go out and highlight it, make it the main focus of their mission and outward facing identity, to get people off of the truck and aware of what is around them. It's a good change and PFBC wind behind it will accelerate it. But it's happening with or without them.

In time this will create conservationists, create people who care about wild and yes, native fish. It is doing so, it's just slow.

Top post award.

 

[Swattie87]

It's going to take a generation to get there.

From a purely practical perspective this is the current bottom line. In 30 years the wild Trout/conservation camp will be the majority in PA I think. Until that happens, it’s admittedly an uphill battle. We all know that, and see it from the PFBC’s current management approaches and practices. They’re doing what the majority wants, while attempting to drop enough crumbs to appease the current minority. Just like any publicly funded entity would.

Guys like Pat and myself (late 30’s/early 40’s) will surely engage our children in the wild Trout angling experience. That’s what they’ll grow up on, develop fond memories of, and advocate for as adults.

Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t continue to advocate for it in the meantime though. And it doesn’t mean current Stockie guys can’t be converted. My Dad’s a prime example. I don’t think he knew what a wild Trout was until I became a wild Trout fanatic. I remember the conversation about this stream not being stocked, and him needing to trust me there was fish in it, and him catching a vibrant yellow bellied Brown Trout, and it clicking for him. Segloch Run, ironically enough from recent discussions.

 

[krayfish2]

Would any of you agree to going back to a closed season on wild fisheries? Be it hoot owl type during the hottest months or closed during spawn/hatch out?

Fully expect Mike to add post that closing during spawn has zero impact on survivability.

 

[silverfox]

You know what I'm proposing. You know the plan. You have always known the plan and what I am proposing. You don't remember the conversations?
I haven't changed. I'm trying to stick with the plan that we discussed to get stocking stopped over all wild trout. You know the plan. Stop with the show. Put the need to achieve the common goal a little higher or change your goal of testing me to protecting wild trout.
There is no place on earth where there is a greater opportunity to study the impacts of stocking over wild trout.
There is no place on earth that stands to gain more by that understanding.
Once we understand the greatest negative impact stocking represents to our wild trout can we stock responsibly.
I believe stocking leads to stunting and resident fish. I believe because the Brown trout lives longer and grows larger it would be beneficial to study as the impacts of stocking would be most observable and demonstrable.
I believe that as a result of stocking brown trout compete with the brook trout year round both as juvenile and adult.
Perhaps the Brook trout is impacted the same way. I challenge anyone to prove that stocking does not lead to the stunting of our brook trout.
I respect the PFBC's role in our wild trout management by considering their needs by acknowledging the need for a strong selling point to bring anglers around to the thought of a different management.

What are you and your organization proposing? Maybe I could get behind it.

I'm being 100% sincere here. I don't recall any plan being discussed. At least not in specifics. I know we discussed the common issues, but I don't know if I'm clear on the proposal, and don't want to speak for you.

 

[streamerguy]

Has anybody straight up asked a PFBC biologist, fisheries manager, etc. "What do we need to do to stop stocking over wild trout/native brook trout?" and got a punctual response laying out the tasks needed to accomplish said goal?

From my experiences and from what I've heard from others, the response is always "oh well there needs to be a culture shift blah blah blah."

I'm curious if anybody has ever been given a roadmap laying out the steps needed to reach the goal. I feel like the answer is no.

The studies are out there showing the effects of hatchery trout on wild trout. The PFBC obviously knows about them, but action on their part on any significant scale hasn't been happening.

 

[Stenonema]

Yes, it is.

And my major point is that the PFBC should recognize their responsibility in encouraging and leading that change. It's going to take a generation to get there.

But it's not the conservation organizations, watershed associations, riverkeepers, environmentalists, and others that are pushing that change. Look at all of them. They consist of primarily old men, meeting in person. Good people, but the prior generation's minority, and they aren't getting the message to the younger generation. It's not the PFBC either, though they should be, but they are the ones that conditioned the prior generation to believe that all trout come from trucks. Yes, they still have influence.

But the change is coming about via social media. Avid fishermen like all of us talking amongst each other, on facebook, on message boards. Social media creates enthusiasts. Enthusiasts search the far corners of the state and find wild trout everywhere, that have been hidden for years by the PFBC and other media. They may not say the exact location, but they post it, with pictures of beautiful wild fish on facebook, talk about their experiences on message boards like this one, go to work and tell everyone what a good time they had. And when someone they talk to, someone who fancies themselves a fishermen but really only fishes for 1 month a year and thinks that's all there is in the trout world, sees this. See's pictures of big, wild, beautiful looking trout, caught in like August? From somewhere close to them? Oh my God, they had no idea that even existed!!!! Because it's been hidden from them by the PFBC for so long. They go out and look for it, and find it, and fall in love with it. And then they convert another. And all these converts have kids and teach their kids.

It's about information. Telling the world that wild trout exist. Right here. Minutes from home. That there are more wild fish in your neighborhood than there are stocked ones. That you can do it all year long. The PFBC needs to encourage that, to actively go out and highlight it, make it the main focus of their mission and outward facing identity, to get people off of the truck and aware of what is around them. It's a good change and PFBC wind behind it will accelerate it. But it's happening with or without them.

In time this will create conservationists, create people who care about wild and yes, native fish. It is doing so, it's just slow.

Yes!!! Exactly what some of the members of the Pa Wild Trout Network are doing.

 

[silverfox]

Has anybody straight up asked a PFBC biologist, fisheries manager, etc. "What do we need to do to stop stocking over wild trout/native brook trout?" and got a punctual response laying out the tasks needed to accomplish said goal?

From my experiences and from what I've heard from others, the response is always "oh well there needs to be a culture shift blah blah blah."

I'm curious if anybody has ever been given a roadmap laying out the steps needed to reach the goal. I feel like the answer is no.

The studies are out there showing the effects of hatchery trout on wild trout. The PFBC obviously knows about them, but action on their part on any significant scale hasn't been happening.

The answer I've always gotten is that stocking over brook trout doesn't negatively impact brook trout. More specifically, that stocking over brook trout isn't limiting the brook trout biomass of the stream.

 

[streamerguy]

Yes, it is.

And my major point is that the PFBC should recognize their responsibility in encouraging and leading that change. It's going to take a generation to get there.

But it's not the conservation organizations, watershed associations, riverkeepers, environmentalists, and others that are pushing that change. Look at all of them. They consist of primarily old men, meeting in person. Good people, but the prior generation's minority, and they aren't getting the message to the younger generation. It's not the PFBC either, though they should be, but they are the ones that conditioned the prior generation to believe that all trout come from trucks. Yes, they still have influence.

But the change is coming about via social media. Avid fishermen like all of us talking amongst each other, on facebook, on message boards. Social media creates enthusiasts. Enthusiasts search the far corners of the state and find wild trout everywhere, that have been hidden for years by the PFBC and other media. They may not say the exact location, but they post it, with pictures of beautiful wild fish on facebook, talk about their experiences on message boards like this one, go to work and tell everyone what a good time they had. And when someone they talk to, someone who fancies themselves a fishermen but really only fishes for 1 month a year and thinks that's all there is in the trout world, sees this. See's pictures of big, wild, beautiful looking trout, caught in like August? From somewhere close to them? Oh my God, they had no idea that even existed!!!! Because it's been hidden from them by the PFBC for so long. They go out and look for it, and find it, and fall in love with it. And then they convert another. And all these converts have kids and teach their kids.

It's about information. Telling the world that wild trout exist. Right here. Minutes from home. That there are more wild fish in your neighborhood than there are stocked ones. That you can do it all year long. The PFBC needs to encourage that, to actively go out and highlight it, make it the main focus of their mission and outward facing identity, to get people off of the truck and aware of what is around them. It's a good change and PFBC wind behind it will accelerate it. But it's happening with or without them.

In time this will create conservationists, create people who care about wild and yes, native fish. It is doing so, it's just slow.

Yep. The challenge is how to we speed up the process so that we are able to see significant change in our lifetimes.

 

[Stenonema]

I'm being 100% sincere here. I don't recall any plan being discussed. At least not in specifics. I know we discussed the common issues, but I don't know if I'm clear on the proposal, and don't want to speak for you.

I expected as much. I have explained it to troubled inner city Philly youth who had never had the opportunity to fish and had varying degrees of learning disabilities. They understood it. I wrote about it in blogs and posted it. I recently did a pod cast and spoke on it. I did presentations to Trout Unlimited and spoke at length on it. I did youtube presentations. I began a closed group the Pa Wild Trout Network to promote it. We did a petition on it with an attached study that was shared earlier.
You are not the first to take that angle. Go on what I did give you in my comment.