Challenge to all Trout Camps

That's entirely untrue.
It has been my experience.
It is disrespectful to speak for someone else. Please refrain from doing that. You have done it several times. Enough about that. I just wanted to mention it if we are to ever work together in any capacity for change I wanted to let you know where I stand. Never say never..
 
It has been my experience.
It is disrespectful to speak for someone else. Please refrain from doing that. You have done it several times. Enough about that. I just wanted to mention it if we are to ever work together in any capacity for change I wanted to let you know where I stand. Never say never..
Eric, you just spoke for the entire Native Fish "stance" in the post I replied to. People will try to explain to others what you stand for. That's part of the game.
 
This thread is ridiculous.
🤦

Eric, you just spoke for the entire Native Fish "stance" in the post I replied to. People will try to explain to others what you stand for. That's part of the game.

Exactly.

And he continues to feed "negativity", breaking his own rules of the thread.

I don't know why some people can't understand that brook trout deserve conservation status above all else and it would be easier to make change using them as the catalyst.


What's next? Save the smallmouth using snakeheads and flatheads?
 
Thats fair, and even though it seems fruitless we never stop talking to them. Its just that the conversations will be much more meaningful when the general public is engaging them as well which is the goal in the near future. Anglers interested in getting it done faster help too despite not being who I refer to as the general public(more non angler or infrequently angler). So while I respect those that don’t have an interest completely, anyone who dose can write their representatives, the fish and game committees(house and senate), write tim schaeffer a letter, and teach one additional person about the issue who has nothing to do with it.
I have written to decision makers screaming about wild trout and will continue to. Wild trout should include brook trout unless I'm missing something. So while I chirping about wild trout, I'm kinda supporting the brookie stance since they should be included. The brookie only people are not supporting all wild trout and that's my beef.

Just as some may have great passion in catching colorful minnows that will eat a cigarette butt, I have the same passion in catching rainbows that will make your reel scream. We are very different yet quite similar 😁
 
This thread is ridiculous.
🤦



Exactly.

And he continues to feed "negativity", breaking his own rules of the thread.

I don't know why some people can't understand that brook trout deserve conservation status above all else and it would be easier to make change using them as the catalyst.


What's next? Save the smallmouth using snakeheads and flatheads?
That's the thing. Brook trout are already well established as a species of greatest conservation need.

There's also already language in the PA code that lays the groundwork for everything from stocking reforms to prioritized habitat conservation work. It's the obvious starting point for regulatory change.
 
I have written to decision makers screaming about wild trout and will continue to. Wild trout should include brook trout unless I'm missing something. So while I chirping about wild trout, I'm kinda supporting the brookie stance since they should be included. The brookie only people are not supporting all wild trout and that's my beef.

Just as some may have great passion in catching colorful minnows that will eat a cigarette butt, I have the same passion in catching rainbows that will make your reel scream. We are very different yet quite similar 😁
Just to clarify, native fish conservation extends well beyond brook trout and isn't about species favoritism. It's not even about fishing. In the fishing context, the native fish poster child in most of the east is the brook trout. So as it applies to angling, native brook trout are the obvious focus.

I'm not sure I understand why you'd be upset with people who advocate for native species biodiversity and don't support wild nonnative trout. Wild nonnative trout aren't native fish. Does Ducks Unlimited upset you because they don't get involved in Whitetail deer conservation?
 
It has been my experience.
It is disrespectful to speak for someone else. Please refrain from doing that. You have done it several times. Enough about that. I just wanted to mention it if we are to ever work together in any capacity for change I wanted to let you know where I stand. Never say never..
I think the compromise that native fish conservationists have made is that 100% percent of streams in Pennsylvania are managed for specifically not native brook trout but “wild trout”. Which means based on what we know managing for displacement of native brook trout in a vast majority of places both species exist.

We have zero regulations for native brook trout in this state

We have zero management zones for native brook trout

We have entire watersheds of nothing but wild invasive brown trout that are protected for the most part, unstocked, and that have received a lions share of the physical restoration/ stream work in this entire state

Urban legends and myths are spread ablut native brook trout like in all cases the water is too warm if there are brown trout, water is too silty if there are brown trout, native brook trout can only live 3 years, they are certainly doomed because of climate change.

You are absolutely right that there has been zero compromise its just that its the other way around. The native fish conservationist has received next to nothing in this state where no one will give up a single brook trout specific regulation, not one single wild invasive trout can be removed, not one watershed statewide for stocking reform where native brook trout is the goal.
How could anyone ever say we are uncompromising zealots when invasive trout species wild or stocked have been given everything( protection regs, watersheds, projects, hatchery reinforcements ect.) and brook trout have been given nothing specifically for them. The goal is to manage for them and the species that displace them simultaneously WITHOUT exception everywhere in PA. With how bad things are we are arguing for crumbs for native brook trout and we are not getting.
 
I have written to decision makers screaming about wild trout and will continue to. Wild trout should include brook trout unless I'm missing something. So while I chirping about wild trout, I'm kinda supporting the brookie stance since they should be included. The brookie only people are not supporting all wild trout and that's my beef.

Just as some may have great passion in catching colorful minnows that will eat a cigarette butt, I have the same passion in catching rainbows that will make your reel scream. We are very different yet quite similar 😁
Case in point Eric. People will misunderstand your position and pretend to know everything about what you stand for even though they're wrong. It comes with the territory.
 
Eric, you just spoke for the entire Native Fish "stance" in the post I replied to. People will try to explain to others what you stand for. That's part of the game.
Speaking for my experience with an organization and speaking for you personally would be two entirely different things but you know that
 
I think the compromise that native fish conservationists have made is that 100% percent of streams in Pennsylvania are managed for specifically not native brook trout but “wild trout”. Which means based on what we know managing for displacement of native brook trout in a vast majority of places both species exist.

We have zero regulations for native brook trout in this state

We have zero management zones for native brook trout

We have entire watersheds of nothing but wild invasive brown trout that are protected for the most part, unstocked, and that have received a lions share of the physical restoration/ stream work in this entire state

Urban legends and myths are spread ablut native brook trout like in all cases the water is too warm if there are brown trout, water is too silty if there are brown trout, native brook trout can only live 3 years, they are certainly doomed because of climate change.

You are absolutely right that there has been zero compromise its just that its the other way around. The native fish conservationist has received next to nothing in this state where no one will give up a single brook trout specific regulation, not one single wild invasive trout can be removed, not one watershed statewide for stocking reform where native brook trout is the goal.
How could anyone ever say we are uncompromising zealots when invasive trout species wild or stocked have been given everything( protection regs, watersheds, projects, hatchery reinforcements ect.) and brook trout have been given nothing specifically for them. The goal is to manage for them and the species that displace them simultaneously WITHOUT exception everywhere in PA. With how bad things are we are arguing for crumbs for native brook trout and we are not getting.

That last paragraph is a bullseye.
 
Speaking for my experience with an organization and speaking for you personally would be two entirely different things but you know that
Understand that your experience with an organization doesn't imply that the organization is uncompromising. Ask PATU how many times they reached out to collaborate with us and we turned them down. Do you know how many times PATU has asked us to support a brown trout centric position? None. They understand that a native fish centric conservation organization doesn't get involved in nonnative fish conservation.

That would be like asking Ducks Unlimited to chime in on a native fish effort and then getting mad when they say it's outside their mission. That wouldn't mean DU is uncooperative, it means they don't dilute their effort by focusing on things outside their mission.
 
Spring creek and little J are literally entire watersheds where almost only brown trout populations exist and they are largely protected from harvest and stocking. This is the exact thing the EBTJV, Universities, and USGS is recommending we do for brook trout and MD, WV, VA, and others are and we do it for wild invasive species and the native fish conservationists are uncompromising zealots? I just don’t get.

We are asking for one single small sub watershed and we are Zealots???

We want a GD crumb compared to what these wild invasive trout get
 
Understand that your experience with an organization doesn't imply that the organization is uncompromising. Ask PATU how many times they reached out to collaborate with us and we turned them down. Do you know how many times PATU has asked us to support a brown trout centric position? None. They understand that a native fish centric conservation organization doesn't get involved in nonnative fish conservation.

That would be like asking Ducks Unlimited to chime in on a native fish effort and then getting mad when they say it's outside their mission. That wouldn't mean DU is uncooperative, it means they don't dilute their effort by focusing on things outside their mission.


HeY nFc cAn yoU SiGn mAH PeTitIOn?🥴

What is so hard to understand here? The Native Fish Coalition can't support this petition. The reason is obvious.

If its focus was simply on not stocking over wild trout I'm sure they would have supported it. Instead it went into protecting big breeding stocks of large wild brown trout that migrate in and out of watersheds for the sole reason to spread genes.
 
That last paragraph is a bullseye.
Agree. Brook trout occupy 1% of their historic range in PA. I think it should be more. So does the Chesapeake Bay Program. So if I'm a zealot, so is everyone at the CBP, TU, and everyone involved in the EBTJV.
 

HeY nFc cAn yoU SiGn mAH PeTitIOn?🥴

What is so hard to understand here? The Native Fish Coalition can't support this petition. The reason is obvious.

If its focus was simply on not stocking over wild trout I'm sure they would have supported it. Instead it went into protecting big breeding stocks of large wild brown trout that migrate in and out of watersheds for the sole reason to spread genes.
I wonder if Whitetails Unlimited would've signed that. Probably not. Those zealots.
 

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I think the compromise that native fish conservationists have made is that 100% percent of streams in Pennsylvania are managed for specifically not native brook trout but “wild trout”. Which means based on what we know managing for displacement of native brook trout in a vast majority of places both species exist.

We have zero regulations for native brook trout in this state

We have zero management zones for native brook trout

We have entire watersheds of nothing but wild invasive brown trout that are protected for the most part, unstocked, and that have received a lions share of the physical restoration/ stream work in this entire state

Urban legends and myths are spread ablut native brook trout like in all cases the water is too warm if there are brown trout, water is too silty if there are brown trout, native brook trout can only live 3 years, they are certainly doomed because of climate change.

You are absolutely right that there has been zero compromise its just that its the other way around. The native fish conservationist has received next to nothing in this state where no one will give up a single brook trout specific regulation, not one single wild invasive trout can be removed, not one watershed statewide for stocking reform where native brook trout is the goal.
How could anyone ever say we are uncompromising zealots when invasive trout species wild or stocked have been given everything( protection regs, watersheds, projects, hatchery reinforcements ect.) and brook trout have been given nothing specifically for them. The goal is to manage for them and the species that displace them simultaneously WITHOUT exception everywhere in PA. With how bad things are we are arguing for crumbs for native brook trout and we are not getting.
You reached me with this one Stix. I feel the frustration.
 
Agree. Brook trout occupy 1% of their historic range in PA. I think it should be more. So does the Chesapeake Bay Program. So if I'm a zealot, so is everyone at the CBP, TU, and everyone involved in the EBTJV.
Grow a sense of humor........
I can copy and paste too......

Zealot definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionaryhttps://www.collinsdictionary.com › dictionary › zealot
Over the years, zealot came to mean anyone who is passionately devoted to a cause. The adjective zealous may describe someone who's merely dedicated and energetic ("a zealous investigator", "zealous about combating inflation", etc.).Nov 11, 2022
 

HeY nFc cAn yoU SiGn mAH PeTitIOn?🥴

What is so hard to understand here? The Native Fish Coalition can't support this petition. The reason is obvious.

If its focus was simply on not stocking over wild trout I'm sure they would have supported it. Instead it went into protecting big breeding stocks of large wild brown trout that migrate in and out of watersheds for the sole reason to spread genes.
Help me to understand how is anything your doing here is helping to protect Brook Trout. What is your intention bringing this up or entering this conversation this late. To educate and protect Brook Trout? To bring more people over to the cause?
What are you protecting?
 
At extreme risk, lol. I'll try to spell out my own viewpoint.

I am for wild trout. Browns, brookies, rainbows. And on 95% of projects they aren't going to conflict. Now for the nuance. Yes, of those, brookies should recieve preference where it is feasible.

Feasible..... While I recognize that, for instance, the LJR, once held brookies, and who knows, one may turn up now and then even today. Browns have displaced them. They are the more aggressive, more dominant species in that particular environment. They won. I believe that any effort to eradicate the browns from the LJR is doomed to fail. You are going to ruin an absolutely fantastic wild trout resource, attempt to establish brookies, maybe even have a modicum of success in getting a few to grow. But while you do this it's gonna suck as a fishery, turn a whole lotta people against you for ruining their favorite river, and make you and your cause public enemy #1. And the moment you look away, browns are going to take it back over anyway. I am perfectly happy with saying the LJR, with wild browns in it, is a valuable resource I want to protect.

And substitute the LJR with, frankly, MOST wild brown streams in this fair state. In no way would I advocate any sort of mass statewide policy of taking out browns in efforts to restore brookies. Not because I don't see brookies as more important, I do. But I value the browns too, I don't think it'll work, and all you'll do is screw up an already good fishery failing to make a better one. It's like having a wonderful wife, and throwing her away to try for someone a little better, even though you know you won't succeed and you'll end up with nobody!

But take out the policy/fisherman in me and I do see brook trout as the conservation priority. We need to pay extra attention to protecting those headwater streams where brookies still thrive. That will have benefits downstream too. I agree that the PFBC should have some brook trout specific policies, if for no other reason than public awareness and education. In another thread I said 1. stop stocking over brookies and 2. make brookies C&R statewide. I would absolutely support that. It says nothing about removing browns, or don't pay attention to browns, or anything of the sort. And yes, in an ideal scenario, if it were feasible to replace a mixed population with brookies only, I think it should be done. Even if as an experiment. Upper Kettle was mentioned. I'm not talking about ending the stocking throughout the entire length of Kettle. I'm saying it has a barrier, Ole Bull. A fence on the fish ladder will do nicely. Above that barrier there are browns, and brookies, already battling it out. And plenty of interconnected tribs with brookies. That's an ideal place to run such a thing, to try to tip the scales in favor of the brookies. Shock out the browns, encourage their harvest, make brookies C&R. Advertise the crap out of it, show the public you are serious about protecting brook trout above all other. Restore this particular system for brookies, because it actually stands a chance of success.

But yes, I still believe our brown trout water is valuable and worthy of conservation efforts as well, and if anyone has a project to restore, enhance, or protect a wild brown trout stream, sign me up, I'm your ally. Nativists, I'm your ally too on most projects, I want to see brook trout succeed as well. And hell, I see value in stocked fisheries too. As much as I would LOVE to see lower Pine Creek, or Oil, or name any large warm waterway, restored to cold water. As much as the focus and goal should be on wild trout. Right now those are are not wild trout streams. They are still valuable. They SHOULD be stocked and provide a valuable resource. And project work/conservation efforts on those is fine as well. Did you see what improvements on Babb Creek did for Pine? OMG, yes, lets do more of that. Yeah, it enhanced a stocked fishery. It made things better. And maybe enough efforts like that Pine will turn more wild, that'd be great, but lets not diminish the gain that was already made on the stocked fishery.

You can't just separate conservation from fishing like that. Fishermen are your conservationists. Stocked fisheries, wild brown fisheries. Those are the gateways. They create conservationists. As a kid I yanked stocked fish out of the local stocked streams. Started searching out a better experience, went for float stocked type waters instead of bathtubs. Moved onto Spring and Penns and the like and was like, wow. Fished brookie streams and loved it. Got involved in all of the above. And now I have kids. And I take them to the smaller local stocked streams, where I started, because a 4 foot tall 7 year old isn't going to walk 3 miles into a stream, or handle wading the Lehigh or Penns Creek, or have the attention span to wait for the evening hatch. You gotta start somewhere. I have even taken him to pay ponds, because it's fun and gets him into it, but you know when he catches a 7 inch native, I go nuts and explain to him how this is a better trophy than that 20 inch bow he caught in that fee pond. You can educate. Our policies should focus on educating more than they do. You can tell the public, our policies show a clear preference for native brook trout over wild browns, wild browns over stocked anything, and where none of the above is currently feasible, we still value having a stocked fishery over no fishery at all. That's our priority hierarchy and what will lead our policy. Each stream is different. And the way we manage is we look at every stream, we take that priority hierarchy, and determine what the highest form that stream is currently capable of, and we shoot for that. That's what I'm for.
 
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