Another big improvement...this time a limestoner

For those who think wanting to know the name of this stream constitutes everything from laziness to spot burning what if Mike had posted this instead?

A formerly improving urban-suburban SE Pa limestoner has taken a substantial turn for the worse. An approximately 5.5 km segment has gone from a mix of probable class B and class A equivalent segments in the 1990s to a fairly low density, relatively low biomass wild brown population in two-thirds of that stretch and no wild trout in the upper third in 2015. These situations are never satisfying.

Would you think the name of this stream was relevant and worth knowing?
 
Everyone on here should be treated with respect and everyone is welcome to post all kinds of info about fly-fishing in PA. Besides that, there really aren't a lot of rules to follow, but:

No member on this site should be criticized for not naming a stream in a thread or post.

No member on this site should be criticized for naming a stream in a thread or post

If either scenario, naming or not naming upsets you, don't read the thread or post or don't visit the site at all.

There are plenty of sites out there with guys bickering, criticizing each other, and worse....join one of them.





 
I wasn't complaining about anything. But I don't think Mike needs to be chastised for pointing up some good news.
 
McSneek wrote:
What's interesting about this post is the OP is the PAF&BC Regional Biologist (may not have title correct) and has not been hesitant to share specific stream information in other instances. I find the lack of specific information in this post inconsistent with others he's made.

I suspect this stream is in the Lehigh Valley somewhere. Just a hunch.
.
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Already, Little Lehigh, Saucon, the Easton Bushkill, the Monocacy, Trout Run and Cedar Creek are well know, for decades, to have wild brown trout in abundance as well as Cook's creek and a few others that I can't remember since I haven't lived there in over a decade. The upper Jordan near its origins does. And another creek, forgot it's name, up North East of Nazareth does too. I can't remember if Hoqendaqua does or not. So does Pocono creek, right along the road. And several others tribs whose name I do not know. So there. BIG REVEAL! Go get 'em boys!

Now, what's the creek's name? Trindle Spring Run was one of the 'worst kept secrets' for wild rainbows. Hogestown run does too, but both streams are so small that not many people will bother with them after a few adventure trips. Neither could be a go-to stream unless you live right there. It would be good if they improved, but really it would provide a minor bit more of fishing, overall, again, unless you live right there. Am I afraid of a ton of traffic on Sage Run by telling people there are an inordinate number of 11-15" wild browns in it? No, because once you see it, you probably will only fish it once.
So just say it so we all can know what's going on. Good news of this type is too rare to hide.

Syl.
 
boy, it's a good thing there aren't any guide books out there specifically focusing on PA Limestoners.

oh, wait:
http://www.amazon.com/Trout-Unlimited-Pennsylvania-Limestone-Streams/dp/0811729443

51N6P6FFY5L._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


And my 2 cents says this stream is neither Trindle nor Hogestown. Mike knows his geography pretty well and those are both in southcentral, not southeastern. And Mike's description doesn't fit either of those all that well anyways.

Glad to hear there's improving streams in somebody's backyard, enjoy it and thanks for the update Mike.
 
That book is somewhat useful, but overall it is rather lousy.....just saying.
 
McSneek wrote:
For those who think wanting to know the name of this stream constitutes everything from laziness to spot burning what if Mike had posted this instead?

A formerly improving urban-suburban SE Pa limestoner has taken a substantial turn for the worse. An approximately 5.5 km segment has gone from a mix of probable class B and class A equivalent segments in the 1990s to a fairly low density, relatively low biomass wild brown population in two-thirds of that stretch and no wild trout in the upper third in 2015. These situations are never satisfying.

Would you think the name of this stream was relevant and worth knowing?
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Yes....I believe the name would be more relevant then. It could draw more focus on the root of the problems and probably receive a lot of love and attention that may do it good. I'm fine without knowing the name of this stream, btw.
 
I'd like to think we are all adults and are able to take a little criticism without getting our feelings hurt. This was not meant to be an "Attack" on anyone!
 
Guys, it's obviously Valley Creek. Now go fish it, just not downstream or with stoneflies.
 
I agree with Afish about naming or not naming at one's discretion without expecting criticism. On the other hand, I am puzzled why an employee of the Fish & Boat commission whose commercial work (as opposed to private scouting) is public (or should be) wouldn't name the stream. If it's in the public domain in the form of a commission (taxpayer) report, what's the objection? Also, I, too, would be interested in what caused the stream to rebound. Just sayn'
 
It used to be when men had a gripe they would keep it to themselves, at least until they got drunk. The internet has once again ruined life as I knew it.
 
On a more constructive note, everyone PM me your guesses and I will let you know if that seems like the one :)
 
troutbert wrote:
streamerguy wrote:
troutbert wrote:
What was the cause of the improvement?
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^^THIS^^ is the question we all need to be asking!! And how we can apply it to other streams to help them improve as well.

The name of the creek doesn't really matter. Unless maybe you're a local that already knows/cares about it and are interested in the info. WHY it got better does matter.
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Mike might yet answer this question. The OP was only posted yesterday. I hope that he will.

Many people are interested in improving trout populations in damaged streams. Many things have been attempted that did not work, which is frustrating.

So, what DOES work is very valuable information.
Click to expand...

I sorta disagree with this to an extent. I don't think there's as much secret to improving trout streams as you might think. I think there have been enough successes as well to bear that out. We shoulx keep in mind too that not all streams have the same issues either. Unless we're talking the removal of an obsolete dam I also think the answer is typically more than just one thing. It's often several steps taken. I do agree that sharing successes can be valuable for other streams in need of improvement or protection.
 
The intent of the original post was to reward those on this Board who have frequently stated or suggested that they like to learn of come-backs and substantive improvements in wild trout streams that are likely related to environmental or broad natural habitat improvements (as opposed to large year classes). It was meant as a "big picture" item that all could appreciate regardless of where they reside and regardless of the stream's name. This could be especially interesting to some since the stream is located in an urban/suburban area.

Limestoners are often substantially degraded, seemingly for good, owing to their commonly low gradient and frequent locations on valley floors, some of the first places to historically see agricultural activities and housing development. Rather than a freestoner, here was a limestoner that had made a partial recovery.

Additionally, a second reason that I did not disclose the name of the stream to an audience, as some have supposed, is because the substantial improvement was revealed by a very reliable angler, who had grown up near and fished the stream since his youth. The stream has been on the wild trout list probably since it was first released, so it has not been a secret. The local angler's report of the improvement and his reliability was the sole reason for the survey, as there was the possibility of finding a Class A equivalent population in an improved limestoner. Reliable anglers are a valuable informational resource.

As for the reasons for the improvement, the candidates are still under review. As for the location, the stream is not in the Lehigh Valley; it is in the Schuylkill Valley. Finally, there was some limited evidence that the stream was being fished by more than the angler who contacted me.
 
Thanks for the update Mike. Great to see that the PFBC follows up on anglers information, and even better to see the PFBC respects the wishes of the angler.

 
you guys do realize that the bucket brigade can come on here and look at these posts right? so mike should def name it so it can be fished out immediately !!!
Enjoy that he shared a waterway that is recovering.
 
It is encouraging that the commission surveyed the stream and believed a "reliable angler" enough to take a look and actually note the improvement. People do listen!
 
The bucket brigade wants to do as little as possible. They won't fish it unless there's a bridge or a clear groomed path to the hole. Trust me when I say the secret is safe in class A and wilderness streams.

Anyone who wants to talk 5 to 6 miles up a wilderness stream in Potter county because I name drop hammersly go for it. The bucket brigade isn't as bad as you think it is outside of stockers.
 
tomitrout wrote:
boy, it's a good thing there aren't any guide books out there specifically focusing on PA Limestoners.

oh, wait:
http://www.amazon.com/Trout-Unlimited-Pennsylvania-Limestone-Streams/dp/0811729443

51N6P6FFY5L._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


And my 2 cents says this stream is neither Trindle nor Hogestown. Mike knows his geography pretty well and those are both in southcentral, not southeastern. And Mike's description doesn't fit either of those all that well anyways.

Glad to hear there's improving streams in somebody's backyard, enjoy it and thanks for the update Mike.
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I thought about that book when this thread originated. Plenty of good info on limestone streams within the binding of that book.

With regards to me saying it was Trindle, I was just dumping some gasoline on the fire. Clearly, Trindle does fall into the SC region, not SE. Just fanning the flames a lil...
 
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