Your plan to end Stocking over Wild

[Mike]

flyguyfishing said:
“Including surveys about angler fishing habits especially -with some location data.
Then analyze the data with goal of identifying specific streams to reduce stocking.
There is a middle ground to be found. Some wild streams may need to continue stocking.”.

Ding,ding,ding,ding…… and after all of these years congrats to flyguyfishing for the closest comment ever in this forum to reality regarding an angle that could be applied to not just reduce stocking on some waters, but eliminate it in some cases and also boost it in others. It’s a double-edged sword. Just substitute “angler use” for his “angler fishing habits.”

I’ll add…Incremental change would be practical; all or nothing would be DOA.

 

[streamerguy]

Ah.... So angler use trumps the conservation of our native species. Got it.

 

[Mike]

Ah.... So angler use trumps the conservation of our native species. Got it.

Reference my last sentence above.

I was once told by a respected (nationwide) biologist “if you’re not prepared to accept political realities,you’re not prepared to be a fisheries manager.”

 

[albertw27]

In my opinion, I don't think that the list of Class A streams should be published for general consumption - the classification should solely be used by resource and fishery management. This will help reduce angling pressure as we will each have to do more exploring (versus just look at a list to find wild / native trout).

These waters will then be "posted" as wild trout waters versus with the streams grade with mandatory catch and release.

Just my two cents...

 

[Fish Sticks]

flyguyfishing said:
“Including surveys about angler fishing habits especially -with some location data.
Then analyze the data with goal of identifying specific streams to reduce stocking.
There is a middle ground to be found. Some wild streams may need to continue stocking.”.

Ding,ding,ding,ding…… and after all of these years congrats to flyguyfishing for the closest comment ever in this forum to reality regarding an angle that could be applied to not just reduce stocking on some waters, but eliminate it in some cases and also boost it in others. It’s a double-edged sword. Just substitute “angler use” for his “angler fishing habits.”

I’ll add…Incremental change would be practical; all or nothing would be DOA.

I did not hear anyone propose all or nothing , could have missed it

 

[wildtrout2]

In my opinion, I don't think that the list of Class A streams should be published for general consumption - the classification should solely be used by resource and fishery management. This will help reduce angling pressure as we will each have to do more exploring (versus just look at a list to find wild / native trout).

These waters will then be "posted" as wild trout waters versus with the streams grade with mandatory catch and release.

Just my two cents...

Too late for that thinking, the cat's pretty much out of the bag at this point.

I have to be honest, the Class A list is how I learned about several of my favorite wild trout streams over the years. I even made a copy of the Class A list in the event it disappears, for whatever reason.

 

[streamerguy]

Reference my last sentence above.

I was once told by a respected (nationwide) biologist “if you’re not prepared to accept political realities,you’re not prepared to be a fisheries manager.”

Understood. It's just frustrating and disappointing...... especially seeing other states pull off larger-scale management strategies, setting aside larger watersheds, while PA is stuck trying to justify stocking over Class A's, leaving little hope for Class C and D brook trout streams.....which need the help the most.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This is why the whole push for awareness outside angling is critical because if the conservation minded general public, who are also stakeholders, become aware of the knowing ruin of our high quality cold water ecosystems there may be different “political realities”.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

People out west are talking to folks in the east about how to create super-male browns but a fisheries scientist told me it takes 15 years to create/start them

15 years? Maybe we need to confer with Pfizer or Moderna?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Reference my last sentence above.

I was once told by a respected (nationwide) biologist “if you’re not prepared to accept political realities,you’re not prepared to be a fisheries manager.”

You know I see you say this a lot and I see this kind of sentiment expressed in many things.

The problem is, it's the accepting of political realities that make them a reality.

The best example I can think of to express my thoughts is this:

On March 15 1942, more than 1,300 Norwegian teachers were arrested by the German Nazi-installed government run by Vidkun Quisling after 12,000 of 14,000 nationwide had refused to join the new Nazi-oriented teachers' association and resisted nazification of the curriculum.

Norwegian teachers prevent Nazi takeover of education, 1942 | Global Nonviolent Action Database

nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu

Obviously a much more extreme situation but the point stands that either you stand up for what you believe is correct or you don't. If all the "fisheries managers" stopped succumbing to things they know go against what their actual job, knowledge, facts and science then their wouldn't be these "political realities."

It's the sin of power and greed controlling the lack of moral uprightness to walk in truth and integrity out of fear.

 

[streamerguy]

The problem is, it's the accepting of political realities that make them a reality.

......

If all the "fisheries managers" stopped succumbing to things they know go against what their actual job, knowledge, facts and science then their wouldn't be these "political realities."

Bingo

 

[Mike]

I’m a realist, not an idealist. This isn’t war; it’s fisheries. Quite a different scale.

In fisheries it’s called being wise enough to recognize that which you cannot change (at that time) so that you may live to fight again, perhaps in a more influential role. Formerly difficult circumstances can change for any number of reasons. Some keys to success as fisheries managers that they don’t teach in school are being opportunistic and keeping multiple irons in the fire.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I’m a realist, not an idealist. This isn’t war; it’s fisheries. Quite a different scale.

In fisheries it’s called being wise enough to recognize that which you cannot change (at that time) so that you may live to fight again, perhaps in a more influential role. Formerly difficult circumstances can change for any number of reasons. Some keys to success as fisheries managers that they don’t teach in school are being opportunistic and keeping multiple irons in the fire.

And here I figured political realities are akin to war by the way they should be handled, especially when the aim is change. Perhaps I've overestimated but you have underestimated.
You call it wise to recognize what you cannot change so that you may "live to fight another day", sounds like war to me.

🤷

We frequently encounter situations in which political players create narratives that presume to be comprehensively representative of “the political reality,” but these should be seen as a means of persuasion, since, ultimately, the purpose of political narrative is not to provide such an innocent mirror image of reality.

You may be a realist but only because you sacrificed ideals of the idealist, as most people do.

Just saying.

It goes all around, from top to bottom.
We are just as guilty.

If PA anglers truly wanted change, they could change it in a second. Just don't buy a license and blast the politicians. Or if the employees of the PfBC also quit until the Commissioners made proper decisions. The reality is they all would fall in line.

The greed. The greed is everywhere and all are coated in it.

 

[djs12354]

Simple. Lower the biomass requirement for class A. I don't know that I'd go all the way to every stream on the natural repro list. But what is currently class B for sure, and I could argue class C's as well. You don't have to change the rule of not stocking class A's, you just lower the requirement to be class A. Threshold somewhere between what is currently class B and C. And that's for all species of trout.

As a second thing, I would say stop stocking brook trout altogether. Heading that direction already. If you don't stock them, then any brook trout you catch is known to be wild. That does 2 things. It ends DNA influence of stocked fish on native populations. And, it allows you to make brook trout C&R statewide, without any major public backlash. On a stocked class D stream, you can still keep the stockers, but if its a brookie, let it go. That also gives reason for all the dads out there, with their kids on opening day, to teach the kid to identify a brook trout and explain their importance, adjust tactics so that you don't hurt the brook trout, etc. Voluntarily.

As always, Pat, a well-reasoned comment. I agree, and would point to a reduction in stocking costs. I'd certainly like to see a good portion of the realized savings going to more enforcement on the water

 

[Fish Sticks]

I’m a realist, not an idealist. This isn’t war; it’s fisheries. Quite a different scale.

In fisheries it’s called being wise enough to recognize that which you cannot change (at that time) so that you may live to fight again, perhaps in a more influential role. Formerly difficult circumstances can change for any number of reasons. Some keys to success as fisheries managers that they don’t teach in school are being opportunistic and keeping multiple irons in the fire.

While I don’t think ending stocking would be palatable, the reform that i have always advocated for thats happening and working like gang busters 20 min south of the PA border, was just simply enacted.

No polling people not educated in the discipline of fisheries science asking pretty pretty please let us do our jobs, just managers managing in those situations.

Where were the village people with pitch forks and torches? No fisheries managers head’s rolled, they just did what people think is impossible in PA and created a model for the whole east coast.

Some of the “political realities” are real if you are talking something really black/white or drastic but some are most certainly exaggerated or imagined when it comes to reasonable reform. We can’t have one watershed to manage wild native brook trout in the 86,000 stream miles? Its time for managers to stop running from a self imagined boogie man that never came for anyone in MD, WV, VA and other states that are leaving us in the dust(but still far from perfect).

 

[silverfox]

While I don’t think ending stocking would be palatable, the reform that i have always advocated for thats happening and working like gang busters 20 min south of the PA border, was just enacted. Where were the village people with pitch forks and torches? No fisheries managers head’s rolled, they just did what people think is impossible in PA and created a model for the whole east coast.

Some of the “political realities” are real if you are talking something really black/white or drastic but some are most certainly exaggerated or imagined when it comes to reasonable reform. We can’t have one watershed to manage wild native brook trout in the 86,000 stream miles? Its time for managers to stop running from a self imagined boogie man that never came for anyone in MD, WV, VA and other states that are leaving us in the dust(but still far from perfect).

Not only that, but when DNR surveyed anglers, they found almost 90% favored what they wanted to do.

Some of these "oh, we couldn't possibly do that, people would be mad" fears that prevent any significant forward progress are perceived threats to license sales and nothing more.

 

[BradFromPotter]

In my opinion, I don't think that the list of Class A streams should be published for general consumption - the classification should solely be used by resource and fishery management. This will help reduce angling pressure as we will each have to do more exploring (versus just look at a list to find wild / native trout).

These waters will then be "posted" as wild trout waters versus with the streams grade with mandatory catch and release.

Just my two cents...

so the insiders & their friends can know what streams are class A without doing the exploring on their own?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Not only that, but when DNR surveyed anglers, they found almost 90% favored what they wanted to do.

Some of these "oh, we couldn't possibly do that, people would be mad" fears that prevent any significant forward progress are perceived threats to license sales and nothing more.

As I posted:
We frequently encounter situations in which political players create narratives that presume to be comprehensively representative of “the political reality,” but these should be seen as a means of persuasion, since, ultimately, the purpose of political narrative is not to provide such an innocent mirror image of reality

 

[troutbert]

Its time for managers to stop running from a self imagined boogie man that never came for anyone in MD, WV, VA and other states that are leaving us in the dust(but still far from perfect).

The fisheries managers don't get to make the decisions in PA.

In PA the decisions are made by the Commissioners.

 

[BradFromPotter]

The fisheries managers don't get to make the decisions in PA.

In PA the decisions are made by the Commissioners.

who controls the commissioners?