Your plan to end Stocking over Wild

[6xAdams(Jones)]

I found this question intriguing enough to research (Okay, Google and Wiki are kind of like research).
I wanted to see if tiger trout would help, but places out west actually use them to eradicate brook trout. Then I saw this Outdoor Life article about how a super-male brook trout was developed in Idaho to mitigate impact on western native trout populations.

Idaho Hatches Plan to Help Native Trout by Introducing "Super-Male" Brook Trout

Idaho is implementing an experimental new strategy with "super-male" brook trout in its effort to eradicate brookies from certain watersheds.

www.outdoorlife.com

"The wildlife agency’s answer to these questions is the “super male”, which is a male brook trout that has two Y chromosomes instead of the usual XY arrangement. The effect of this change is that fish with two Y chromosomes can still fertilize eggs from females, but this fertilization will only produce male offspring."

The article is ~ 2 years old and I don't know if success has been measured yet.
Could it be possible to modify brown trout in a similar manner to make an all-male, and eventually a non-breeding population of brown trout in wild brook trout water?
A catch-and-kill brown trout policy could eventually be implemented in the test location to keep the meat fishers happy (no hole-bleaching please).

 

[Fish Sticks]

I found this question intriguing enough to research (Okay, Google and Wiki are kind of like research).
I wanted to see if tiger trout would help, but places out west actually use them to eradicate brook trout. Then I saw this Outdoor Life article about how a super-male brook trout was developed in Idaho to mitigate impact on western native trout populations.

Idaho Hatches Plan to Help Native Trout by Introducing "Super-Male" Brook Trout

Idaho is implementing an experimental new strategy with "super-male" brook trout in its effort to eradicate brookies from certain watersheds.

www.outdoorlife.com

"The wildlife agency’s answer to these questions is the “super male”, which is a male brook trout that has two Y chromosomes instead of the usual XY arrangement. The effect of this change is that fish with two Y chromosomes can still fertilize eggs from females, but this fertilization will only produce male offspring."

The article is ~ 2 years old and I don't know if success has been measured yet.
Could it be possible to modify brown trout in a similar manner to make an all-male, and eventually a non-breeding population of brown trout in wild brook trout water?
A catch-and-kill brown trout policy could eventually be implemented in the test location to keep the meat fishers happy (no hole-bleaching please).

I have been keeping tabs on this, it seems like in new mexico there is a stream full of invasive brook trout that are trending towards enough of a sausage party after super male treatment that it looks like they could be rid of invasive brook trout quite soon. Invasive brook trout are a big threat to the wild native rio grand cuttys in that stream. Mt, Idaho, NM, and oregon all piloting invasive super male brook trout right now.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I found this question intriguing enough to research (Okay, Google and Wiki are kind of like research).
I wanted to see if tiger trout would help, but places out west actually use them to eradicate brook trout. Then I saw this Outdoor Life article about how a super-male brook trout was developed in Idaho to mitigate impact on western native trout populations.

Idaho Hatches Plan to Help Native Trout by Introducing "Super-Male" Brook Trout

Idaho is implementing an experimental new strategy with "super-male" brook trout in its effort to eradicate brookies from certain watersheds.

www.outdoorlife.com

"The wildlife agency’s answer to these questions is the “super male”, which is a male brook trout that has two Y chromosomes instead of the usual XY arrangement. The effect of this change is that fish with two Y chromosomes can still fertilize eggs from females, but this fertilization will only produce male offspring."

The article is ~ 2 years old and I don't know if success has been measured yet.
Could it be possible to modify brown trout in a similar manner to make an all-male, and eventually a non-breeding population of brown trout in wild brook trout water?
A catch-and-kill brown trout policy could eventually be implemented in the test location to keep the meat fishers happy (no hole-bleaching please).

People out west are talking to folks in the east about how to create super-male browns but a fisheries scientist told me it takes 15 years to create/start them

 

[streamerguy]

But I think the OP is asking what is OUR plan, as anglers interested in native & wild trout, to try to influence fisheries management to reduce stocking over wild & native trout?

We've covered the "problem describing" pretty well. But now what is our plan of ACTION?

Exactly. Most of what has been said in these posts has been discussed a million times already on this forum. We know what the PFBC should do. But HOW do we get the PFBC to do it? That's the question.

Sending letters, submitting comments, talking to staff, etc. isn't working. I mean it is....but at an extremely slow pace. We want to see significant stocking reform happen today. Or within the next 5 years at least.....not when we're all sitting in retirement homes wishin we were fishin.

I believe there is something we can do, just don't know what that something is. What would be perfect is people within the PFBC stepping up and initiating the change. That would be the quickest, easiest, and most efficient way. Though I feel that 1.) There isn't any anyone with the motivation/passion/excitement to initiate the movement and 2.) if there is, they're afraid to step up and start something with the fear of at best, being ignored, or at worse getting punished to the point of being fired or having to resign.

The PFBC is constantly coming up with reasons why they SHOULD stock. If we can't even get the PFBC to end stocking on the best of the best wild fisheries (such as the Stocked Class A brown streams) then how in the world are we supposed to get them to stop stocking all native brook trout waters all the way down to Class D (off the top of my head I believe Class E is zero fish, or at least no evidence of reproduction)? I'd like to see this reform happen in my lifetime.

As for my plan......drum roll.....I don't have one. Wish I did. Have thought about it long and hard, but am out of ideas that don't involve PFBC staff stepping up. Was hoping some of the bright minds on this board could come up with something, but it seems like we're all still scratching our heads.

It's just a never ending battle. I think krayfish may be on to something with the free beer...

 

[Stenonema]

People out west are talking to folks in the east about how to create super-male browns but a fisheries scientist told me it takes 15 years to create/start them

An attempt at a discussion to end the introduction of invasive trout as they are being dumped into our streams evolves into a conversation about genetically engineered trout to destroy established invasive populations.

 

[streamerguy]

Its a good thought though and one many have had. I called and asked to see PFBC’s permit to release invasive species on state forest land/DCNR state parks which PA code says they would need. And I was told technically PAFB has jurisdiction over the water so that code does not apply and they just have to sit and watch the white trucks roll no matter how counterproductive it is to the forest/stream corridors their managing.

Ok, fine. But the PFBC still has to operate on DCNR land. Drive on state forest roads, park on DCNR property, walk the buckets of fish on DCNR property, etc. I don't see how the DCNR doesn't have the power to limit those activities on their land. The PFBC technically would still be allowed to stock the waters, but they'd have to go the helicopter route. Or maybe have drones fly individual buckets?

 

[pcray1231]

I think krayfish may be on to something with the free beer...

Krayfish for president!

 

[silverfox]

Ok, fine. But the PFBC still has to operate on DCNR land. Drive on state forest roads, park on DCNR property, walk the buckets of fish on DCNR property, etc. I don't see how the DCNR doesn't have the power to limit those activities on their land. The PFBC technically would still be allowed to stock the waters, but they'd have to go the helicopter route. Or maybe have drones fly individual buckets?

Because they're sister agencies, with neither having any more power than the other.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Ok, fine. But the PFBC still has to operate on DCNR land. Drive on state forest roads, park on DCNR property, walk the buckets of fish on DCNR property, etc. I don't see how the DCNR doesn't have the power to limit those activities on their land. The PFBC technically would still be allowed to stock the waters, but they'd have to go the helicopter route. Or maybe have drones fly individual buckets?

Hahaha your right they are still technically transporting overland. It ultimately comes down to the fact that they don’t want to get into an ugly fight with PFBC. This kind of intergovernmental agency conflict is the kind of stuff that could send leadership into complete anal fibrillation.

I stated I made 5 phone calls, the first four responded with the same 4 reaponses.

“Thats way above my pay grade”

The fifth said “my understanding is they have jurisdiction over the water” so what that really means to me is thats an easy way to say “we don’t support it but we are not willing to fight it “

 

[Fish Sticks]

An attempt at a discussion to end the introduction of invasive trout as they are being dumped into our streams evolves into a conversation about genetically engineered trout to destroy established invasive populations.

The Rio grand Cutthroat will not be lost from that stream because of those super-male trout. When the last female disappears there will be no more genetically engineered trout stockings. It essentially just sets it back to how it was before invasive brook trout were there.

 

[streamerguy]

I understand they FBC manages the waterways. I feel like DCNR could at minimum post signs ,similar to the brook trout signs at the park on Honey in Reedsville, in State Parks and Forest where stocking occurs over a native population. Would a State Park Manager be able to approve signs for the park they manage?

This is a great idea.

Hear me out... WHAT IF, the DCNR put up signs at stocking points saying "Hatchery trout are stocked in these waters. These fish are detrimental to the existing population of brook trout, PA's state fish, that are present in this stream. Wild brown trout may also be present, and the stocking of hatchery fish may also harm this fishery, and is a poor usage of your fishing license dollars since this stream already has self-sustaining populations of fish without the need for expensive hatchery trout. We encourage you to harvest any hatchery trout you may catch."

"1 free beer if you submit a photo of hatchery trout you harvested from this stream. 1 free case of beer if you post about your experience on social media, educating your audience about the harmful effects of hatchery trout on native brook trout and wild brown trout populations."

*mic drop*

 

[wildtrout2]

This is a great idea.

Hear me out... WHAT IF, the DCNR put up signs at stocking points saying "Hatchery trout are stocked in these waters. These fish are detrimental to the existing population of brook trout, PA's state fish, that are present in this stream. Wild brown trout may also be present, and the stocking of hatchery fish may also harm this fishery, and is a poor usage of your fishing license dollars since this stream already has self-sustaining populations of fish without the need for expensive hatchery trout. We encourage you to harvest any hatchery trout you may catch."

"1 free beer if you submit a photo of hatchery trout you harvested from this stream. 1 free case of beer if you post about your experience on social media, educating your audience about the harmful effects of hatchery trout on native brook trout and wild brown trout populations."

*mic drop*

Love it!

 

[Fish Sticks]

This is a great idea.

Hear me out... WHAT IF, the DCNR put up signs at stocking points saying "Hatchery trout are stocked in these waters. These fish are detrimental to the existing population of brook trout, PA's state fish, that are present in this stream. Wild brown trout may also be present, and the stocking of hatchery fish may also harm this fishery, and is a poor usage of your fishing license dollars since this stream already has self-sustaining populations of fish without the need for expensive hatchery trout. We encourage you to harvest any hatchery trout you may catch."

"1 free beer if you submit a photo of hatchery trout you harvested from this stream. 1 free case of beer if you post about your experience on social media, educating your audience about the harmful effects of hatchery trout on native brook trout and wild brown trout populations."

*mic drop*

Hahaha ok ok ok

 

[Fish Sticks]

Hahaha ok ok ok

This is a great idea.

Hear me out... WHAT IF, the DCNR put up signs at stocking points saying "Hatchery trout are stocked in these waters. These fish are detrimental to the existing population of brook trout, PA's state fish, that are present in this stream. Wild brown trout may also be present, and the stocking of hatchery fish may also harm this fishery, and is a poor usage of your fishing license dollars since this stream already has self-sustaining populations of fish without the need for expensive hatchery trout. We encourage you to harvest any hatchery trout you may catch."

"1 free beer if you submit a photo of hatchery trout you harvested from this stream. 1 free case of beer if you post about your experience on social media, educating your audience about the harmful effects of hatchery trout on native brook trout and wild brown trout populations."

*mic drop*

I will spill the beans

 

[Fish Sticks]

I started getting the materials to make such signs and have the images and text for a mach sign I am presenting to DCNR in near future.

If look back roofing trouter(nate) suggested the same last night and i said “hahaha i’ll PM” you. We will see if they allow it. It has to be no regulation just information though.

We have done alot of sinage at NFC and the idea came a while back so we took a sign we already had with 3 species and are adapting it for proposal.

 

[troutbert]

Exactly. Most of what has been said in these posts has been discussed a million times already on this forum. We know what the PFBC should do. But HOW do we get the PFBC to do it? That's the question.

Sending letters, submitting comments, talking to staff, etc. isn't working. I mean it is....but at an extremely slow pace. We want to see significant stocking reform happen today. Or within the next 5 years at least.....not when we're all sitting in retirement homes wishin we were fishin.

It's works for the other side.

Why is Young Womans Creek being stocked right now?

Because letters, comments, talking to staff, contacting legislators, contacting Fish Commissioners DO work.

Also, I think these things have worked for our side too. Without Trout Unlimited, I don't think Operation Future would ever have occurred.

But overall, the other side is much better at advocating for what they want, with the people who make the decisions.

 

[silverfox]

It's works for the other side.

Why is Young Womans Creek being stocked right now?

Because letters, comments, talking to staff, contacting legislators, contacting Fish Commissioners DO work.

Also, I think these things have worked for our side too. Without Trout Unlimited, I don't think Operation Future would ever have occurred.

But overall, the other side is much better at advocating for what they want, with the people who make the decisions.

Exactly. Which is exactly what I said in post #3. Which, by the way, is a suggestion for what WE need to do per the OP. My point is, we're all already doing it, and its working. It's just not going to be some press release saying "PFBC to end stocking over wild trout tomorrow" type affair.

 

[streamerguy]

It's works for the other side.

Why is Young Womans Creek being stocked right now?

Because letters, comments, talking to staff, contacting legislators, contacting Fish Commissioners DO work.

Also, I think these things have worked for our side too. Without Trout Unlimited, I don't think Operation Future would ever have occurred.

Oh, absolutely. And we shouldn't stop doing that stuff. But I'm talking about large-scale, statewide management changes. Small victories here and there are great and need to happen, though it's all just happening at a snail's pace. How do we make these large-scale trout stocking practice changes happen in our lifetimes?

Ending stocking on Class C's and above was proposed. That's a lot of water. I'd personally extend that to Class D's for brookies....since those fish are barely hanging on as it is. How to we make something like that happen?

 

[Stenonema]

This is a great idea.

Hear me out... WHAT IF, the DCNR put up signs at stocking points saying "Hatchery trout are stocked in these waters. These fish are detrimental to the existing population of brook trout, PA's state fish, that are present in this stream. Wild brown trout may also be present, and the stocking of hatchery fish may also harm this fishery, and is a poor usage of your fishing license dollars since this stream already has self-sustaining populations of fish without the need for expensive hatchery trout. We encourage you to harvest any hatchery trout you may catch."

"1 free beer if you submit a photo of hatchery trout you harvested from this stream. 1 free case of beer if you post about your experience on social media, educating your audience about the harmful effects of hatchery trout on native brook trout and wild brown trout populations."

*mic drop*

My God that's brilliant..... Sponsored by Straubs

 

[streamerguy]

It's just not going to be some press release saying "PFBC to end stocking over wild trout tomorrow" type affair.

Well we need to make that a press release type affair, especially as it pertains to brook trout.

This letter and comment here and there, stream by stream thing isn't happening fast enough. Especially when the PFBC is still coming up with exceptions for stocking Class A's. Maybe I'm just being selfish and would like to see it all happen soon and enjoy seeing the benefits play out.