Wild Browns

[pcray1231]

which brings us back to acid rain abatement and noticing more browns. The fact that we've made great strides with all of the scrubbers and such on power plants, is an extreme danger to brook trout populations in this state. Leaves an environmentally minded angler torn.

Acid rain saved the brookie.

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:
Yeah, brookies handle acidic waters the best. What I'm not sure of, is whether its the fish that handle them better, or the eggs. My impression is the latter because travelling browns seem to do just fine, but they can't establish strong populations.

This strength of brookies is one of the only things that has kept them around, IMO. Browns are dominant. Everywhere that browns can establish in numbers, it seems that in time, they take over the brookies. Remember, brookies weren't always the fish of the headwaters, they were everywhere. Headwaters, big rivers, limestoners, etc. It's just that they've been driven out of most of their former haunts by habitat degradation and brown trout. Headwaters are merely the last fortress. Browns invade, but can't gain a foothold.

That said, you then find some brookies in limestoners coexisting with browns. BFC, Big Spring, and others. I haven't yet figured out how they manage, when they didn't manage in so many seemingly similar streams??? Is there separate breeding areas, like tribs or something, that continually supply a source of adult brookies to the big water?

There are for the most part a smaller number of wild brown trout in in the SR regulation area of Big Spring when compared to Rainbow & Brookies. Given the "fact" that Brownies are the most prolific of the 3, especially in alkaline streams - why would that be? Further, almost no where (to my knowledge) is there any stream where all 3 wild trout species are present and rainbows outnumber the other two.

http://www.fishandboat.com/images/fisheries/afm/2007/7x09_19bigspring.htm

In BFC, this is more typical of wild Brookie populations (very few when compared to browns):

http://fishandboat.com/images/reports/2010bio/3x03_31fishing.htm

Side note - I have caught a few bows in BFC, but I always attributed that to them being hatchery escapees.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Chaz]

The conditions of Big Spring favor brookies and rainbows over brown trout. So If you catch a brown, keep it. In fact keep the bows too.

 

[Chaz]

One could make an arguement for acid rain making the conditions for brookies in freestone streams more favorable for them, but I don't believe that's the only factor. Brookies fair better during floods and droughts than browns due. I'm not sure if browns are more prolific, I've never heard anyone or seen anyone write that, in fact they usually say that brookies are the more prolific fish.
A biologist in fact told me that brookies produce the same numbers of YOY fish in Fishing Creek(Lamar) in all the surveys, they just can't compete with the browns, browns being more agressive.

I think we're seeing more browns in some of these streams because they are just warmer than they used to be. In fact there are some streams that appear to be reverting to more brookies, is it temperature or acidity, I don't know if anyone knows for sure. But what I do know is that even though scrubbers are being used and the rain is less acidic, it is going to take a very long time for buffering capacity to improve.

 

[salmo]

I subscribe to the warmer water more browns theory and the eastern Pennsylvania streams are certainly experiencing increased water temperatures.

Salmo

 

[wetnet]

streamerguy wrote:
I've never targeted wild brown trout before, but I have caught 3 of them, all in small freestone streams. One was in a mainly brookie stream, one was in a mainly rainbow stream, and the other I'm not sure because it was the only fish I caught in the creek. I would like to target them but I'm not really sure where to start. Would they be in the lower reaches of brookie streams? Should I still use dries or should I go underneath? The 3 I did catch were subsurface. Are they more spooky than brooks(maybe thats why I'm not catchin them?)? I'll probably be fishin in NW PA so no spring creeks, all freestoners.

Strike success. They just hit differently. Browns will rise sip and submerge and hold a fly without setting themselves.

 

[troutbert]

Like Chaz I've seen many streams shifting towards more brookies, and less browns on the freestone streams.

PCRay reports seeing the opposite shift.

The PFBC has loads of data from electrofishing surveys, dating from the late 1970s to the present. I wonder if they're seeing a clear trend one way or the other on the freestoners.

 

[pcray1231]

Interesting. My obervations, mostly in NW PA, are that streams where I never turned up browns for the last 15 years, now occasionally turn up browns. Streams that always turned up a few but were dominated by brookies, now it's no so clear which species dominates. And some streams that were too acidic for any fish, now have a handful of brookies.

A lot of those NW streams, with lower gradients, are perhaps better suited to browns. It's also the area of the state with historically the highest acid deposition rates. So this very easily could be region specific. I have not noticed a warming trend with water temps, and the watersheds are still pretty much pure forest. But I don't have near enough data to reliably say the water temps have or haven't changed.

I also fish central PA and now eastern PA a lot, and likewise, I catch my share of browns in streams that are supposed to be mainly brookies. But my history in these streams is too short to say that anything has really changed there. I can say that in one case, the lower half is nearly all browns, with a break point, above which it's mostly brookies and a few browns. The break point noticably moved upstream about a half mile this year compared to last. But for all I know, it wobbles back and forth every year. That one could be based on water temps.

Afish, there's a system in NW PA that has all 3 species intermixed. I fish the main stem and 2 of the tribs, though I'm sure there's several other tribs too. Each spot is different. But by biomass, rainbows dominate more area than either browns or brookies, with one stretch reaching class A rainbow status. You definitely get segregation within the streams, though. Rainbows dominating the pocket water, browns dominating the bigger (slow) pools, and brookies dominating the headwaters.

 

[Swattie87]

Can't say with any certainty one way or the other as to whether Browns or Brooks are expanding/retracting in terms of their ranges, but it's definitely an interesting discussion. I'll agree with pcray and I think it's pretty well documented that in water that's suitable to both (temp, PH, etc), and where both are present, Browns tend to dominate and eventually drive Brookie populations down.

I will say this...I rarely, if ever find a Brookie in a place that I don't expect one. Browns turn up in all kinds of unexpected places though.

I usually try to take Mondays off in the Fall to fish (and stay up and watch Sunday night football) and I hit a small/headwater, infertile SC "Brookie" stream today. I did catch a few Brookies...and this guy...

 

[FarmerDave]

pcray1231 wrote:
Yeah, brookies handle acidic waters the best. What I'm not sure of, is whether its the fish that handle them better, or the eggs. My impression is the latter because travelling browns seem to do just fine, but they can't establish strong populations.

I think it is a little of both. I don't remember the numbers, but brook trout do not reproduce in PH below a certain number, but can survive in much lower PH. This explains why many of the streams in and around the ANF are only stocked with brook trout.

The same is probably true with brown trout, but both numbers are probably a little higher.

Here is something anecdotal (probably not the best word, but I'm going with it).

At my little brother's last place he had a spring next to his house. He put in a large galvanized tank or trough. What he would do is catch trout in the local stocked stream and bring them home alive and put them in the tank to keep fresh until he was ready to eat them. At first he only brought home brook trout because that is what was mostly stocked. this worked well. Well, he eventually brought home the occasional brown trout (on a couple occasions). Every one died within a half hour, so he had to clean and either eat or freeze them. But the brook trout survived as long as the water was flowing. True story. We surmised that it was due to acid content. all the springs along there were on the acidic side.

 

[csoult]

afishinado wrote:
n area of Big Spring when compared to Rainbow & Brookies. Given the "fact" that Brownies are the most prolific of the 3, especially in alkaline streams - why would that be? Further, almost no where (to my knowledge) is there any stream where all 3 wild trout species are present and rainbows outnumber the other two.

This brings up a good point, and there is no science behind this but, is it possible that the color of the rainbow is making the young rainbows stand out and therefore easier for the other fish to pick off?

 

[pcray1231]

No. I doubt that has much to do with it.

#1. I think PA's streams generally aren't favorable to rainbows.

#2. Like brookies, I think rainbows tend to lose the battle against browns when water is suitable for both. Unlike brookies, they don't have the "acid tolerance" or any other factor over browns to give them a refuge from the brown trout onslaught.

#3. The PFBC strain of rainbow has been tinkered with a lot. Even to the point of breeding at different times of the year. Thus, they are less likely to establish wild populations from stockies. The PFBC fish can't act as a "seed" population, so any new wild rainbow populations have to come from neighboring streams, and there aren't that many of those.

Your point, if applicable, falls within #2. But I think browns are simply more aggressive than rainbows and brookies as far as taking feeding positions, mating, etc. Browns also seem to be more tolerant of warm water temps. And I think they're more wary, meaning they withstand fishing pressure and predation better. Also, browns tend to be fish eaters more than the other two, and fish includes young rainbows and brookies.

 

[afishinado]

afishinado wrote:
n area of Big Spring when compared to Rainbow & Brookies. Given the "fact" that Brownies are the most prolific of the 3, especially in alkaline streams - why would that be? Further, almost no where (to my knowledge) is there any stream where all 3 wild trout species are present and rainbows outnumber the other two.

pcray1231 wrote:
No. I doubt that has much to do with it.

#1. I think PA's streams generally aren't favorable to rainbows.

#2. Like brookies, I think rainbows tend to lose the battle against browns when water is suitable for both. Unlike brookies, they don't have the "acid tolerance" or any other factor over browns to give them a refuge from the brown trout onslaught.

#3. The PFBC strain of rainbow has been tinkered with a lot. Even to the point of breeding at different times of the year. Thus, they are less likely to establish wild populations from stockies. The PFBC fish can't act as a "seed" population, so any new wild rainbow populations have to come from neighboring streams, and there aren't that many of those.

Your point, if applicable, falls within #2. But I think browns are simply more aggressive than rainbows and brookies as far as taking feeding positions, mating, etc. Browns also seem to be more tolerant of warm water temps. And I think they're more wary, meaning they withstand fishing pressure and predation better. Also, browns tend to be fish eaters more than the other two, and fish includes young rainbows and brookies.

All good points highlighted above. Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.

 

[Fishidiot]

afishinado wrote:
Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.

There's some debate about this. Traditionally, brown trout have done well in BS. Their numbers were never great but they were common and grew to huge sizes (two previous state record browns came from BS in the 1940-60s). During the ditch years from the mid 70s until 2001 there were good numbers of browns in the ditch but since the closure of the hatchery and the rebound of the stream, browns are disappearing. Currently, there is a remnant population of large, very old browns in upper BS but they're slowly disappearing. Recent surveys turn up a handful of YOY browns amongst the thousands of rainbow and brookie fingerlings. The current theory among close observers of BS is that the stream's natural upwellings in shallow, fine gravel areas is unsuitable for brown trout spawning (brookies spawn very well in fine gravel upwellings). My guess is that there will always be a few browns in BS but I don't think they'll ever be there in the numbers that bows and brooks will - probably due to an inability to spawn successfully in the upper creek.

 

[csoult]

Good info FI.

 

[pcray1231]

As FI said, there are likely factors which favor brookies.

Another point:

It may be difficult for browns to completely take over an entrenched population. However, should a weakness in the entrenched population occur, such as some sort of natural or manmade disaster, it may be the opportunity the browns need, and when the stream comes back, it may be mainly browns.

I think there are plenty examples of this happening. I'm not sure on timing, but for instance, Spring Creek and the LJR. Both streams were originally brookies with browns struggling, and then went through some major issues and the trout populations crashed. When they bounced back, they were browns.

Such disasters are more common in freestoners and downstream sections of limestoners, and less likely very near to the source of such streams.

 

[afishinado]

Fishidiot wrote:

afishinado wrote:
Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.

There's some debate about this. Traditionally, brown trout have done well in BS. Their numbers were never great but they were common and grew to huge sizes (two previous state record browns came from BS in the 1940-60s). During the ditch years from the mid 70s until 2001 there were good numbers of browns in the ditch but since the closure of the hatchery and the rebound of the stream, browns are disappearing. Currently, there is a remnant population of large, very old browns in upper BS but they're slowly disappearing. Recent surveys turn up a handful of YOY browns amongst the thousands of rainbow and brookie fingerlings. The current theory among close observers of BS is that the stream's natural upwellings in shallow, fine gravel areas is unsuitable for brown trout spawning (brookies spawn very well in fine gravel upwellings). My guess is that there will always be a few browns in BS but I don't think they'll ever be there in the numbers that bows and brooks will - probably due to an inability to spawn successfully in the upper creek.

Great info Dave. BS is unique.

Name another decent sized PA wild trout stream or river where wild brookies and/or rainbows dominate over wild browns.

I can only think of one.

 

[salmo]

I find it quit ironic that there are many (including myself) lovers of the eastern brook trout on this site, while there are many anglers in the Rocky Mountain states who treat the brookies out there almost like vermin. The brookies in the Rockies are non-native, have a tendency to overpopulate some streams and have done damage to the native trout particularly the west slope cutthroat trout, out competing the cutthroats in the high mountain areas. Does this sound familiar? The following link it to an article by Paul Scullery dealing with the brookies in Yellowstone. It appears the brookies out west have done damage to the native cuts, much the same as browns have done to the brook trout populations in the east.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aMSirL58NHYC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=brook+trout+overpopulation+yellowstone&source=bl&ots=ea7mFZrMbJ&sig=lY5hn-cgN55AN_G-55ggj2TtcQY&hl=en&ei=92x7TvT1EYHb0QGr0pDZAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=brook%20trout%20overpopulation%20yellowstone&f=false

Salmo

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, it sounds familiar. However, I looked at this line and had to chuckle:

The brookies in the Rockies........have a tendency to overpopulate some streams

They do that here too. It's just that they are native here, and we consider overly high populations a GOOD thing.

Yeah, they consider the brookies to be vermin. But they love them some rainbows, even on the east slope. Despite the fact that the rainbows have probably taken more native cutthroat water than the brookie has.

 

[RowJimmy]

Big difference between here and out west is that without the brookies, bows, and browns the cutts can still survive in most rivers and streams. Here the brookies can't.