Which direction would you go?

[mute]

If you lived in the Philadelphia area and could travel up to two hours in one direction to get into some decent bigger wild trout water which direction would you go? Something smaller then the WB of the Delaware but bigger then your common remote mountain streams that are 5-10 feet wide.

 

[Dave_W]

Head west and north.

Two hours on the T-pike from Philly might barely get you to the Cumberland Valley depending on where you start and which streams you're targeting. The Lehigh Valley region has some bigger wild trout as well as the Dauphin, Berks, Lebanon Co's area.

 

[mute]

Thanks Dave, ive been doing a decent amount of fishing in Berks but most of the streams are on the smaller side. You mentioned Dauphin and Lebanon.

Im guessing youre response is mostly around specifically Natural Repro waters and not Class A? If thats accurate, so far ive found that documented Natural Repro waters were pretty bad. As far as fish densities or even seeing any fish at all. Now its possible thats all relevent to the county or part of the state youre in. But from my recent trips in the bordering counties, either no fish were seen, or only a few dinks per mile.

Im sure it also depends on when the last time said water was surveyed and stated as a Natural reprod categorization.

I have fished the Yellow Breeches as thats in my 2 hour window, and thats about the size im looking for, if not a bit smaller. But something like that within state forests or game lands is more my passion. Just not sure what counties or parts of the state contains that. Maybe 3 hours is what i need to expand to? Which to me, is about on the line of rather wanting to stay the night and drive back home the next day.

 

[afishinado]

mute wrote:
Thanks Dave, ive been doing a decent amount of fishing in Berks but most of the streams are on the smaller side. You mentioned Dauphin and Lebanon.

Im guessing youre response is mostly around specifically Natural Repro waters and not Class A? If thats accurate, so far ive found that documented Natural Repro waters were pretty bad. As far as fish densities or even seeing any fish at all. Now its possible thats all relevent to the county or part of the state youre in. But from my recent trips in the bordering counties, either no fish were seen, or only a few dinks per mile.

Im sure it also depends on when the last time said water was surveyed and stated as a Natural reprod categorization.

I have fished the Yellow Breeches as thats in my 2 hour window, and thats about the size im looking for, if not a bit smaller. But something like that within state forests or game lands is more my passion. Just not sure what counties or parts of the state contains that. Maybe 3 hours is what i need to expand to? Which to me, is about on the line of rather wanting to stay the night and drive back home the next day.

I'm have the same quandary about travelling to fish. You may want to try the Lehigh River. Bigger water, bigger fish and less than a 2 hour drive. It' tough to wade in certain sections, but there's a lot of water to explore and the scenery as well as the fish and fishing can be great. You can spend years exploring that river. Although I do not recommend you trying to fish in the winter, at least in the gorge area. Good luck.

 

[Dave_W]

mute wrote:

Im guessing youre response is mostly around specifically Natural Repro waters and not Class A? If thats accurate, so far ive found that documented Natural Repro waters were pretty bad. As far as fish densities or even seeing any fish at all. Now its possible thats all relevent to the county or part of the state youre in. But from my recent trips in the bordering counties, either no fish were seen, or only a few dinks per mile.

Yes.
Don't take this the wrong way - I'm being sincere...

If you are serious about large wild trout in PA on larger waters you will have to take up exploring and not become discouraged when you find no fish or catch only a few dinks per mile. Large waters with wild trout are rarely on the Class A list and if they are, it's the upper, colder sections and this may reflect a different county than where you find the mouth of the stream/river on the Natural Repro list.

Many of these waters are seasonal fisheries and best targeted during late fall and springtime or at night.

Check these waterways via map and internet imagery. Note that many flow eastward or southeastward and explore the lower reaches of the watersheds as the lower reaches are closer to you.

Most importantly: when you're out exploring, don't be afraid to strike out and be thankful when you find some smaller wild trout (the big ones are probably there too) or when you catch a nice smallmouth bass by accident.

 

[mute]

afishinado wrote:

I'm have the same quandary about travelling to fish. You may want to try the Lehigh River. Bigger water, bigger fish and less than a 2 hour drive. It' tough to wade in certain sections, but there's a lot of water to explore and the scenery as well as the fish and fishing can be great. You can spend years exploring that river. Although I do not recommend you trying to fish in the winter, at least in the gorge area. Good luck.

Where are you located afishinado? SEPA as well? I have fished tons of tribs\public lands\state forests N\NE\NW from me, haven't went too much NE(Above Allentown ). But have But tons of opportunities going straight up the gorge. I have not fished the gorge yet, at-least not specifically the Lehigh river. It is a very big water as you're alluding to. Which means tons of time and water to cover. I definitely agree its a nice river to fish with many specific opportunities, but I feel like it doesn't fall into the types of scenery \ water I'm seeking currently. Like you said, more of a Spring\Summer thing anyway. I love the smaller streams in the remote forests in the winter. Heck a'lot easier to bush whack what would otherwise be impossible during any other season anyway.

Yes.
Don't take this the wrong way - I'm being sincere...

If you are serious about large wild trout in PA on larger waters you will have to take up exploring and not become discouraged when you find no fish or catch only a few dinks per mile. Large waters with wild trout are rarely on the Class A list and if they are, it's the upper, colder sections and this may reflect a different county than where you find the mouth of the stream/river on the Natural Repro list.

Many of these waters are seasonal fisheries and best targeted during late fall and springtime or at night.

Check these waterways via map and internet imagery. Note that many flow eastward or southeastward and explore the lower reaches of the watersheds as the lower reaches are closer to you.

Most importantly: when you're out exploring, don't be afraid to strike out and be thankful when you find some smaller wild trout (the big ones are probably there too) or when you catch a nice smallmouth bass by accident.

No harm taken Dave. I'm up for any advice, guidance, bashing, etc . Interesting take on what you said, makes sense. Kind of aligns with my suspicions in a way i guess. Trust me when I don't mind exploring. And im not looking for any favors, just understandings that make it easier or at-least saves time in the limited amount that we have on this earth to do the things we enjoy.

Also, when I say large trout, I mean average fish of 10"+. Im not trying to be told where unicorns exists within a 2hr drive. But to that point, it sounds like maybe the easy answer to 10"+ fish would be a 3hr drive to Penns Creek. Again, now were at a 3hr mark. Which is the line of a to and front day trip to now a overnight stay trip for me. I know where bigger fish exist, in bigger waterways, just not within a 2 hr drive. It sounds to me like youre suggesting I start targeting BIGGER Natural Repro lines, possibly just near known Class A's to have the best chance to meet the requirements im looking for(Bigger average sized fish, 2hr or less of a drive from my location).

Ive actually been trying to find a fishing buddy who consistently wants to continue marking off all the lines on my list ive been accumlating from Montco to Schuykill, Carbon, Cumberland and beyond. Not only do I feel like you would be able to cover more explored water faster but it would make trips more efficient and learning the outcomes that come out of the each outing a a faster pace.

 

[HopBack]

I would just keep crossing streams off the list. Water conditions are everything. I’ve been to streams that I swore didn’t have trout but shortly after a late spring rain they revealed some monsters. For bigger trout, look for streams with access to larger bodies of water that can be utilized when water temps are ideal. Water temp, food and habitat are the 3 conditions you absolutely need at least in 3 seasons for a drainage to produce larger trout.

 

[HopBack]

Also, relation to Class A streams does not necessarily mean larger trout. It often just means more trout. More trout= more competition for food which is not ideal for supporting large trout. For small to medium size streams, access to a larger marginal stream/ river with and abundant food source is key.

 

[mute]

Good points HopBack. I guess Im trying to efficiently or strategically accomplish two requirements then, and not necessarily both together.

1. Fishing waterways that hold on average bigger sized fish, in any population.
2. Fishing natural waterways that have higher densities of fish in general(Not necessarily documented Class A)

I think you gave me something to try out in regards to point #1 with your previous comments along with Dave.

As for #2 however, leaving Class A's aside and focusing only on Natural reproduction waters. The problem I've had a handful of times is there's literally zero to few fish present on the few Natural Repros ive tried. Granted they were all in the same county, so perhaps that makes ALL the difference. Which brought me to my previously comment of not knowing when said water was last surveyed and classified as a natural reproduction water. If there was one trout seen 7 years ago and nothing since, that doesn't really do it any good.

Perhaps I need to do what both you and Dave suggested and attempt a few outings on some Natural repro's that feed into some bigger waters that have sufficient temp\food\cover attributes and if possible where a Class A's feeds into it as well. Perhaps that would help cancel out the situation of fishing miles of Natural Trout Repro waters and coming up totally empty.

 

[afishinado]

When exploring new streams for decent trout fishing over the years, my odds of finding a good FFing stream usually shake out as follows:

10 streams explored on a list I came up with through my research >

4 streams were a complete no-go for various reasons like no access found, dense foliage not practical for FFing, no good holding water/ cover for fish, no fish found, etc.

3 streams were fishable but not really what I was looking for reason(s) above

2 streams were okay but not really worth the drive to fish.

1 stream is great and will be added to my list of good FFing streams that I would return to fish.

I suggest you have a few streams on your list to explore, and mix in a sure thing for fishing since you can drive and hike around all day and never find a decent place to fish.

It takes a lot of effort and time to find a good stream that checks all or most of your boxes. I really know of no shortcuts to sacrifice some of your valuable fishing time, doing research with maps and info, and driving to and hiking in to check things out.

You may find someone that is willing to put in their own time and effort and give you a stream location they found by exploring, but many FFers are not willing to do so. Hopefully the above scenario gives you a better understanding why that is, and why one should respect their efforts.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Also you mentioned the interest in finding streams where 10in wild trout are common. Other than Penns, Fishing Creek, Little Juniata, Upper D etc and maybe a select few others, there are not many streams in Pa where 10in wild trout. Those that exist, if they are't already publicized very few if any ffers are going to name those streams for the reasons Afish lists above.

Also, for a stream to be listed as wild trout a survey needs to find yoy trout or multiple age classes of wild trout. Some naturally reproducing streams have relatively low abundance, but these streams may also be where you could encounter an above average brown trout.

Having experience electrofishng, anglers in general are a very poor source of a population estimate. I have electrofished streams when I was doing unassessed waters that you could not see trout visually that were near Class A populations, I have fished streams unsuccessfully that had mind blowing numbers of trout, I have electrofished streams where anglers had just got done fishing unsuccessfully and we turned about a good number of trout.

The exception to this would be your larger streams as they can be much more difficult to electrofish effectively if there are deep pools and bed rock ledges for example.

 

[mute]

afishinado wrote:
When exploring new streams for decent trout fishing over the years, my odds of finding a good FFing stream usually shake out as follows:

10 streams explored on a list I came up with through my research >

4 streams were a complete no-go for various reasons like no access found, dense foliage not practical for FFing, no good holding water/ cover for fish, no fish found, etc.

3 streams were fishable but not really what I was looking for reason(s) above

2 streams were okay but not really worth the drive to fish.

1 stream is great and will be added to my list of good FFing streams that I would return to fish.

I suggest you have a few streams on your list to explore, and mix in a sure thing for fishing since you can drive and hike around all day and never find a decent place to fish.

It takes a lot of effort and time to find a good stream that checks all or most of your boxes. I really know of no shortcuts to putting in the time doing research with maps and driving and hiking to check things out.

You may find someone that is willing to put in their own time and effort and give you a stream location they found by exploring, but many FFers are not willing to do so. Hopefully the above scenario gives you a better understanding why that is and why one should respect their efforts.

I have a similar process. Except I will use the known documented resources from Arcgis in conjunction with Google Maps and OnX which then allows me pre-map and determine all my access points, private vs public property and map an even exact trail\hike in, etc. That way time isn't wasted on possibly not finding parking or finding the water. There's always water found, but is it a trickle? Is there even fish in it? Was it worth the 45 minute hike in? etc.

Besides trying to start meeting my two previously mentioned requirements. The only thing up against is TIME. Which is why i've now been tryin to find someone to do it with. More ground is then able to be covered \ fished faster which then allows to check out multiple waters in the same area per outing, as well as just feeling more safe when you're 2 miles in the woods. Also fishing in twos allows you to split up vehicle travel costs with someone, etc.

Almost every week Ill spend some time and add a couple more waters to get to into my mapping system. Even with fishing 1-2x a week and traveling between 1-2hr to fish one almost every weekend i'm barely making a dent. 2 get crossed off and 4 more get added on lol.

If I had to guess without looking, id say between Montco, Berks, Schuykill, Carbon, Monroe, Lehigh and Cumberland, I have over 40 waters I need to get to in that 2hr drive. And those arent even including Natural Repro designations which are 10 to 1 when comparing to documented Class As.

 

[mute]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Also you mentioned the interest in finding streams where 10in wild trout are common. Other than Penns, Fishing Creek, Little Juniata, Upper D etc and maybe a select few others, there are not many streams in Pa where 10in wild trout. Those that exist, if they are't already publicized very few if any ffers are going to name those streams for the reasons Afish lists above.

Also, for a stream to be listed as wild trout a survey needs to find yoy trout or multiple age classes of wild trout. Some naturally reproducing streams have relatively low abundance, but these streams may also be where you could encounter an above average brown trout.

Having experience electrofishng, anglers in general are a very poor source of a population estimate. I have electrofished streams when I was doing unassessed waters that you could not see trout visually that were near Class A populations, I have fished streams unsuccessfully that had mind blowing numbers of trout, I have electrofished streams where anglers had just got done fishing unsuccessfully and we turned about a good number of trout.

The exception to this would be your larger streams as they can be much more difficult to electrofish effectively if there are deep pools and bed rock ledges for example.

I am in full agreement to everything you said. I know trout can hide. For a long time I wouldn't of believed there were large 16+" trout in a stream I fish. But in the right conditions, they then show themselves, and come clear water they disappear again. So I totally understand that while my statements may seem inaccurate as what I say I see, or dont see could not mean squat. But I figured once I fished 3 Natural Repro. streams and could see in every hole, purposely thrashing through it after fishing it for a mile with nothing. If there were any reason to fish it, you would of atleast seen 1 fish scurry.

My guess is the counties this happened in were the problem and the answer is branching further out where the probabilities make more sense.

 

[DaveKile]

These are all great suggestions and I'll some of these to my process. I also like to explore even when I already have a primary stream I am planning on fishing. For example, when went to the Jam last year I was pretty excited to hit Penns. On the way there, I went a little out of my way and stopped at a special regulation stream I had never been to before. It turned out to be quite a gem and returned the next day.

I like Tom's approach and odds on looking for new water. Winter can be tough with snow, ice and even figuring out what's worth trying right now.

 

[afishinado]

mute wrote:

afishinado wrote:
When exploring new streams for decent trout fishing over the years, my odds of finding a good FFing stream usually shake out as follows:

10 streams explored on a list I came up with through my research >

4 streams were a complete no-go for various reasons like no access found, dense foliage not practical for FFing, no good holding water/ cover for fish, no fish found, etc.

3 streams were fishable but not really what I was looking for reason(s) above

2 streams were okay but not really worth the drive to fish.

1 stream is great and will be added to my list of good FFing streams that I would return to fish.

I suggest you have a few streams on your list to explore, and mix in a sure thing for fishing since you can drive and hike around all day and never find a decent place to fish.

It takes a lot of effort and time to find a good stream that checks all or most of your boxes. I really know of no shortcuts to putting in the time doing research with maps and driving and hiking to check things out.

You may find someone that is willing to put in their own time and effort and give you a stream location they found by exploring, but many FFers are not willing to do so. Hopefully the above scenario gives you a better understanding why that is and why one should respect their efforts.

I have a similar process. Except I will use the known documented resources from Arcgis in conjunction with Google Maps and OnX which then allows me pre-map and determine all my access points, private vs public property and map an even exact trail\hike in, etc. That way time isn't wasted on possibly not finding parking or finding the water. There's always water found, but is it a trickle? Is there even fish in it? Was it worth the 45 minute hike in? etc.

Besides trying to start meeting my two previously mentioned requirements. The only thing up against is TIME. Which is why i've now been tryin to find someone to do it with. More ground is then able to be covered \ fished faster which then allows to check out multiple waters in the same area per outing, as well as just feeling more safe when you're 2 miles in the woods. Also fishing in twos allows you to split up vehicle travel costs with someone, etc.

Almost every week Ill spend some time and add a couple more waters to get to into my mapping system. Even with fishing 1-2x a week and traveling between 1-2hr to fish one almost every weekend i'm barely making a dent. 2 get crossed off and 4 more get added on lol.

If I had to guess without looking, id say between Montco, Berks, Schuykill, Carbon, Monroe, Lehigh and Cumberland, I have over 40 waters I need to get to in that 2hr drive. And those arent even including Natural Repro designations which are 10 to 1 when comparing to documented Class As.

^ You're doing things the right way/best way from the sound of it.

I find Google maps / Google Earth satellite views very helpful in my search. I can zoom in to see the stream, terrain and foliage. Also, Google "street view" is very useful where available. I can virtually "drive" a road to find parking spots, posted signs, landmarks and actually see the stream if it run close to the road.

Let's face it, SEPA is not the hotbed of trout fishing in PA and really great trout streams are few and far between. This means the recon missions to find good FFing are a real road trip and take up a lot of valuable fishing time as well as gas and shoe leather. Good luck on your search.

 

[govtmule]

Someone get that spoon out come on!!!

 

[sandfly]

delaware river from new hope to easton has lots of big fish.

 

[sandfly]

SEPA has some nice trout fishing, just have to pick one.

 

[maxima12]

I live a simple life and being a simpleton. Does it really matter which way you go? Just the fact of going, is that not good enough!

Left home with direction, got lost, ended in places i never heard of. I call that a joyful trip.

Sonny, old story always told. If your not with the one you love, love the one your with!

Maxima12

 

[JeffK]

I would say many larger wild trout come from larger natural repro areas near the smallmouth/trout boundary which is usually stocked trout water, but needs to be repro water (or adjacent to - trout move) to have wild fish Those areas are more fertile and grow bigger trout IMHO. However, the wild trout are rarer and you need to be there at the right time. For example, these streams are normally warmer than trout like in the summer so the fish will head to thermal refuges where fishing for them raises ethical issues.

But the 10"+ as a larger size seems to open up most good sized natural reproduction streams, most of which are usually stocked as well.