Valley Creek Dam Partially Collapsed

[mjones32]

Walking my dog down by the creek today & it appears that the dam has partially collapsed , probably due to recent rain events.

I'm wondering if folks think it should be removed or repaired. Can't be cheap either way.

 

[troutbert]

Another option would be to just leave it as is.

That doesn't cost anything. And from a resource perspective may be as good as the other two options.

 

[Mike]

Which dam? The one in the National Historic Site or the private one upstream, if the private one was still there?

 

[Dave_W]

Mike wrote:
Which dam? The one in the National Historic Site or the private one upstream, if the private one was still there?

The photo above shows the dam in the park. It does appear that the structure has lost a small section of the dam lip.

 

[Zak]

I would never consider rebuilding a dam in this day in age unless it's for recreation or flood control. My vote is breach that one completely sooner rather than later.

 

[Fredrick]

mjones32 wrote:
Walking my dog down by the creek today & it appears that the dam has partially collapsed , probably due to recent rain events.

I'm wondering if folks think it should be removed or repaired. Can't be cheap either way.

Awesome, does that dam serve a purpose besides maybe historical significance

 

[afishinado]

While the removal of dams is looked upon with favor by most, one must look at each case individually to evaluate the benefit or downside of it's removal. There is no lake formed behind the dam warming the water. What benefit would come from this?

The downside of removing the dam near the mouth where Valley Creek meets the Schuylkill River is it prevents nearly all the fish that inhabit the River to enter the stream.

It never ceases to amaze me how many wild trout are present in Valley Creek and how great it is to have a Class A wild trout stream in such an urban area. Fish there or just walk along the banks and see how amazing it is to have so few other species besides trout reside there great numbers. The Schuylkill River is home for chubs, suckers, carp, various panfish, smallmouth bass, channel cats, flatheads, and other warmwater fish. I don't believe there's any benefit to remove the dam and open up the stream to the Schuylkill River.

 

[Fredrick]

afishinado wrote:
While the removal of dams is looked upon with favor by most, one must look at each case individually to evaluate the benefit or downside of it's removal. There is no lake formed behind the dam warming the water. What benefit would come from this?

The downside of removing the dam near the mouth where Valley Creek meets the Schuylkill River is it prevents nearly all the fish that inhabit the River to enter the stream.

It never ceases to amaze me how many wild trout are present in Valley Creek and how great it is to have a Class A wild trout stream in such an urban area. Fish there or just walk along the banks and see how amazing it is to have so few other species besides trout reside there great numbers. The Schuylkill River is home for chubs, suckers, carp, various panfish, smallmouth bass, channel cats, flatheads, and other warmwater fish. I don't believe there's any benefit to remove the dam and open up the stream to the Schuylkill River.

What about giving the trout access to the river so they can leave and come back ?
I dont think many WW species will hang in valley for long with the water temps are there an obundance of Skuke fishes staged at the bottom of the dam ?

 

[Nymph-wristed]

I agree that they will let it be, but if it breached, I am with Fred! It would drain the frog water above that dam or at least let in some big carp from the river Flatheads too!

Seriously, though, isn't he right about the water temps not being optimum? Are there other creeks (yes) with spring influence that connect unimpeded to rivers, and do they get "pests"? I have never encountered schools of smallmouth below that dam ready to take over.

 

[sarce]

I disagree, Afishinado. Can't see any of the species mentioned finding favorable conditions to set up a permanent population in Valley. What I wouldn't mind seeing happen is you'd get an epic spring sucker run from the river which could add a much needed food source for the browns (sucker eggs).

I'm for letting the dam fail on it's own, though. Looks like it's on its way.

 

[afishinado]

Afishinado wrote:
...one must look at each case individually to evaluate the benefit or downside of it's removal...

I'll stand by my belief that no decision should be made without studying the overall effects the dam's removal.

Here is some background info on the complicated and interesting story that is Valley Creek.

Valley Forge TU

Chestco Doc

 

[shadspoon]

Pete Lee here! Grew up at Valley and a VFTU guy for 40 years. It looks like the stone façade has fallen off the road side. I will check it out in the AM. The dam is poured concrete. We can talk a lot about it! Pete

 

[shadspoon]

Greetings! Me again, I was at the dam today. The dam is a poured concrete structure that will be there for a long time. What has happened is the stone capping and facing was removed during the last event.

 

[rrt]

I think Afish is on target. I recall that the two dams on Spring Creek were removed to benefit the stream. Ha! Both dam pools hosted favorable habitat for trout, especially the McCoy Dam, where big trout hung out and could actually be caught by young-and-dumb fly-fishermen like me. After its removal and the creation of the McCoy ditch and its attendant stream "improvements," the fishing there is a sad, sad shadow of what it once was.

I agree with letting VC's dam stand. And, if a benefit is to keep carp and other less-than-desirable fish out of VC, that is a fine reason to let the dam remain, IMO.

 

[Mike]

If those dozens of large trout still move up to the dam from the Schuylkill in late May or June as they did in the 1980's and early 1990's, then what's your position on the matter?

 

[outsider]

Breach the dam +1

 

[Dave_W]

The question of whether to allow fish passage through this dam is not a new controversy (as Mike well knows). I think the NPS may have a policy regarding historic structures preservation that may be applicable here. VFTU should also continue be part of the discussion and I'd be interested in their opinion.

While I'm not a big fan of legacy low-heads...personally, I'm agnostic on this particular issue. I'm not a VC regular and am inclined to be neutral on whether to breach or repair this structure.
Will be interesting to see what happens - perhaps nothing.

I painted this scene a few years ago. Beautiful spot.....

 

[afishinado]

Dave_W wrote:
The question of whether to allow fish passage through this dam is not a new controversy (as Mike well knows). I think the NPS may have a policy regarding historic structures preservation that may be applicable here. VFTU should also continue be part of the discussion and I'd be interested in their opinion.

While I'm not a big fan of legacy low-heads...personally, I'm agnostic on this particular issue. I'm not a VC regular and am inclined to be neutral on whether to breach or repair this structure.
Will be interesting to see what happens - perhaps nothing.

Given the decades and years of assaults on the trout population of Valley Creek, I would be in favor of studying the situation and doing whatever is deemed best for the fish.

The one thing I can say, is the fish are and have been doing fine with the dam in place. Removing the dam can have unintended and unforeseen consequences, but if it is believed some huge benefit can be derived from the removal of the dam than it should be done.

Again, it's about the fish, but as Dave wrote above, there may be historical considerations and the NPS holds the cards to whatever is (or isn't) done with the dam.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Dave,

Just wanted to say I love your paintings. When I was in school, I got a free ride to the University of the Arts, largely based on my academic achievements on the National Art Honors Society. My senior year I really cleaned up on gold and silver awards, most in school history and if my memory serves me, 2nd most ever. Being young and dumb i threw it away for love but i have no regrets because of where iam today. Even still, i always envied people who could paint like you. I was good with pencil, charcoal and just about every medium but paint.
Your paintings of wildlife and nature just have a style to them. I can tell your work just by looking at them. I have contemplated buying one many times but funds never seen available when I do. Sometime the stars will align and I hope to. Everytime I see a stream scene from you it screams PA trout fishing, which is some of my fondest memories. You really capture something in them that I believe is inside us all on the forum.
I know you have been told before and i just wanted to reiterate it again, you truly are a fantastic talent.

 

[mcarney99]

I think the dam should stay for two reasons: keep ww fish from swimming upstream and munching on BT eggs in the fall. And that “frog water” section above the dam isn’t desirable to flyfish due to the fact the banks are steep straight down into slow deep water with mud bottom. The thing is this section is a refuge for larger fish on VC. There isn’t enough habitat on the creek above for a lot of bigger fish. Every time a log jam forms or some sort of other cover it blows out in a storm eventually and gets filled in with silt or gravel. This section is permanent refuge for big trout with multiple springs adding cool water. Also gives the fish a break from constant pressure because of how difficult it can be to present a fly in this section. A LOT of valley numbers are due to larger fish hiding in the shadows of this section and swiming upstream in the fall to spawn. If you remove the dam and subsequently this section will shallow out and give these fish less habitat. Valley number will suffer in the long run I’m almost sure. I have seen fish in the upper section move down into this section once they’ve hit a certain size and have had enough flies bounced off their heads. It’s valley creeks retirement community for some of the bigger wiser fish. The fish we need breeding in valley not turning into musky food in the river or having to move upstream and being caught 4 times a month because the water is too shallow in that section.