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buckspa
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Fly Swatter, thank you.
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Mike
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Read #57 again for the real point...studies of project proposals usually consider all options/alternatives and costs associated with each, including, much to proponents' chagrin, maintaining status quo. If a project is designed to just improve the quality of a fishery, then the general tax paying public, which would be burdened with the expense, has a right to know the comparative costs of various alternatives and their life expectancies.
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LehighRegular
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Mike,
Life expectancy of the project alterations would out live all of us and our children. Maybe our children's children.
FYI - The Upper Delaware is $305 M annually to the local economy. Not saying the Lehigh would be that, but for conservative purposes, lets use 20% of that number = $61M.
I think that would be a considerable investment to the local economy where it is sorely needed.
Life expectancy of the project alterations would out live all of us and our children. Maybe our children's children.
FYI - The Upper Delaware is $305 M annually to the local economy. Not saying the Lehigh would be that, but for conservative purposes, lets use 20% of that number = $61M.
I think that would be a considerable investment to the local economy where it is sorely needed.
S
Smike
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Most of the comments are trying to do the math on fix dam = $$$ and increase in fishing tourism = $$
What is being realized is the benefits to having cold year round water are not just within the fishing community (and in some cases that is a side benefit to increase in annual storage possibilities for other uses). There are potential players which should get the feasibly study finally funded. Since congress authorized recreation as goal #2 for the FEW Dam, its becomes more of a federal funding question once the study is complete.
This project may grow well beyond just getting cold water for fish, and this is why it has merit even with the high rough estimates being tossed around.
However, as mentioned before this is a conservation target rich environment on the river. Removing the PO dam would be tremendous in supporting wild trout in the river, along with other projects. More studies of the fishery are needed (Can we, could we re-direct some of the funding on studies to the Lehigh from the PFBC? I would like to see more of a commitment from that agency on this river)
Overall, the small think, can’t happen, won’t happen, has been proven wrong for 40+ years on this river, to say that now is betting against the long terms results.
What is being realized is the benefits to having cold year round water are not just within the fishing community (and in some cases that is a side benefit to increase in annual storage possibilities for other uses). There are potential players which should get the feasibly study finally funded. Since congress authorized recreation as goal #2 for the FEW Dam, its becomes more of a federal funding question once the study is complete.
This project may grow well beyond just getting cold water for fish, and this is why it has merit even with the high rough estimates being tossed around.
However, as mentioned before this is a conservation target rich environment on the river. Removing the PO dam would be tremendous in supporting wild trout in the river, along with other projects. More studies of the fishery are needed (Can we, could we re-direct some of the funding on studies to the Lehigh from the PFBC? I would like to see more of a commitment from that agency on this river)
Overall, the small think, can’t happen, won’t happen, has been proven wrong for 40+ years on this river, to say that now is betting against the long terms results.
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LehighRegular
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I'm reading through some of Mike's posts... sorry for delayed response.
REALLY? We are comparing a smallmouth fishery with a potential wild trout fishery? Again, small thinking here. How many smallmouth fisheries do we have compared to large wild trout fisheries? Seriously, this is why I give them a bag of crap and say things like "think outside the box".
That is what the Feasibility Study will do...look at various options and economics. However, one has to remember that a wild trout fishery capable of growing large trout (20"+) attracts a different angler. This type of angler typically spends more time fishing the river, is willing to travel great distances in search of this type of trout and spends much more money than your average stocked trout chaser angler. Again, think big picture here. There is nothing that would be comparable in PA, other than the West Branch of the D and maybe Penns as for its "draw" of anglers. So you have to look at tailwaters like in the South/Tennessee or the western fisheries.
REALLY? We are comparing a smallmouth fishery with a potential wild trout fishery? Again, small thinking here. How many smallmouth fisheries do we have compared to large wild trout fisheries? Seriously, this is why I give them a bag of crap and say things like "think outside the box".
That is what the Feasibility Study will do...look at various options and economics. However, one has to remember that a wild trout fishery capable of growing large trout (20"+) attracts a different angler. This type of angler typically spends more time fishing the river, is willing to travel great distances in search of this type of trout and spends much more money than your average stocked trout chaser angler. Again, think big picture here. There is nothing that would be comparable in PA, other than the West Branch of the D and maybe Penns as for its "draw" of anglers. So you have to look at tailwaters like in the South/Tennessee or the western fisheries.
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Mike
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No, I am comparing the entire Middle and Lower Susquehanna River seasonal fishery, not just the SMB, and adding that value to the major fisheries' values that I mentioned earlier.
But yes, if just talking SMB, I would compare a SMB fishery of the Susquehanna's quality with a wild trout fishery. There are many dedicated anglers who never fish for trout.
But yes, if just talking SMB, I would compare a SMB fishery of the Susquehanna's quality with a wild trout fishery. There are many dedicated anglers who never fish for trout.
krayfish2
Well-known member
Mike,
Last Saturday there were over 100 boats on the upper Delaware system. Due to poor conditions, they were congregated in 30 miles of river. That's 250+ anglers in boats and hundreds more wade fishing. Rooms, fuel, food, tackle, guides, shuttle services, etc. What do you think the economic impact of those tailwaters is to the surrounding communities? It will be damn near that busy right through June.
Granted the Lehigh is different but similar results will happen if the fishery reaches part of it's potential. I had a guy fly up from Atlanta to fish it the other week. It's already know and just needs a little help to get better. I'm not advocating 10 billion and reworking the entire damn situation. How about clearing passage in / out of the trips for thermal refuge and spawning? Cheaper and likely more effective. Small investment to see what happens.
Last Saturday there were over 100 boats on the upper Delaware system. Due to poor conditions, they were congregated in 30 miles of river. That's 250+ anglers in boats and hundreds more wade fishing. Rooms, fuel, food, tackle, guides, shuttle services, etc. What do you think the economic impact of those tailwaters is to the surrounding communities? It will be damn near that busy right through June.
Granted the Lehigh is different but similar results will happen if the fishery reaches part of it's potential. I had a guy fly up from Atlanta to fish it the other week. It's already know and just needs a little help to get better. I'm not advocating 10 billion and reworking the entire damn situation. How about clearing passage in / out of the trips for thermal refuge and spawning? Cheaper and likely more effective. Small investment to see what happens.
NickR
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Pardon me but I’m typing on my cellphone and it’s hard for me to gather a coherent thought because there is so much that I want to say about this Lehigh. I can’t possibly say it all in one small post. What we have right now is one badass fishery that could be world class with some TLC.
I just went down to the White River (tailwater) in Arkansas. The White has produced numerous world record brown trout. I know many others who have been trekking there as well. How many from Arkansas are coming here to fish in PA? For a state that totes itself as being the best trout state or one of in the east one would think we would have higher out of state license sales than 5 percent. What’s up with that? We share a border with New York, Delaware, New Jersey, Ohio, Maryland. Why would someone travel here to catch stocked trout in a local ditch when they can catch stocked trout at their own local ditch? We need to get off our high horses...we are way behind the best trout states! With that being said while I was fishing on the White I found myself missing the Lehigh and realized how good of a fishery we have right now. With dam improvements there is no reason why the Lehigh couldn’t be a higher quality fishery than the White. We just need more to advocate for the river.
There is so much work that can be done to improve the Lehigh at this time like removing culverts and small dam removals that would help with connectivity along with providing areas of thermal refuge and opening up spawning grounds. The wild fish are already in the river in good numbers...we just need to give them a little help. There is no better fish or “survivor strain” that is better suited than a wild Lehigh brown trout for the Lehigh. At this time I don’t see how stocking brown trout benefits the river. All it does is weaken the genetic strain and risks introducing diseases to the wild fish. It’s a big river but not so big in the summer under low flows when there is less real estate and the fish are seeking thermal refuge.
Everyone benefits from this dam improvement project and if our money is used for the construction, maintenance and operation of FEW I believe it is owed to us where we have a scenario where we suck as much recreational opportunity out of it as possible and if we just so happen to get one of the best trout fisheries out of this on the east coast that’s a huge win and a huge economic boost to the area.
I just went down to the White River (tailwater) in Arkansas. The White has produced numerous world record brown trout. I know many others who have been trekking there as well. How many from Arkansas are coming here to fish in PA? For a state that totes itself as being the best trout state or one of in the east one would think we would have higher out of state license sales than 5 percent. What’s up with that? We share a border with New York, Delaware, New Jersey, Ohio, Maryland. Why would someone travel here to catch stocked trout in a local ditch when they can catch stocked trout at their own local ditch? We need to get off our high horses...we are way behind the best trout states! With that being said while I was fishing on the White I found myself missing the Lehigh and realized how good of a fishery we have right now. With dam improvements there is no reason why the Lehigh couldn’t be a higher quality fishery than the White. We just need more to advocate for the river.
There is so much work that can be done to improve the Lehigh at this time like removing culverts and small dam removals that would help with connectivity along with providing areas of thermal refuge and opening up spawning grounds. The wild fish are already in the river in good numbers...we just need to give them a little help. There is no better fish or “survivor strain” that is better suited than a wild Lehigh brown trout for the Lehigh. At this time I don’t see how stocking brown trout benefits the river. All it does is weaken the genetic strain and risks introducing diseases to the wild fish. It’s a big river but not so big in the summer under low flows when there is less real estate and the fish are seeking thermal refuge.
Everyone benefits from this dam improvement project and if our money is used for the construction, maintenance and operation of FEW I believe it is owed to us where we have a scenario where we suck as much recreational opportunity out of it as possible and if we just so happen to get one of the best trout fisheries out of this on the east coast that’s a huge win and a huge economic boost to the area.
NickR
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Too busy right now with improving and studying the Delaware. It’s great that they want to improve New York’s fisheries and the PA portion of it but how about we start paying attention to the Lehigh which falls 100 percent within the borders of Pennsylvania!
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Mike
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Providing passage into selected tribs would seem at face value to have potential. Some, however, might be too small, too acidic, blocked by natural barriers, be exclusively wild ST streams, or lack suitable habitat for larger fish under summer low flow conditions. I suspect some agencies and sportsmen groups could get behind this where and if practical. Those could be big if's, however. Of course there would be those pesky problems of funding and RR infrastructure and probably more that I don't even know.
That is just a general thought motivated by interest in restoring fish passage and habitat and knowing of efforts to remove barriers, some natural, in Erie as well as at high culverts around the state. You may want to approach some agencies, conservation groups, and/or seek grants, as well as inventory the tribs for passage potential and discuss results with the owners of the blockages.
That is just a general thought motivated by interest in restoring fish passage and habitat and knowing of efforts to remove barriers, some natural, in Erie as well as at high culverts around the state. You may want to approach some agencies, conservation groups, and/or seek grants, as well as inventory the tribs for passage potential and discuss results with the owners of the blockages.
NickR
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Mike,
All good points and all are already taken into consideration. Tribs are inventoried, photographed along with aerial drone shots. Most have wild trout reproduction. A good number run through or are obstructed on railroad property and then you have the pohopoco which could be a huge boost to the Lehigh if the dam at its mouth were removed. Numerous parties have been contacted.
The dam at the mouth of the “PO” shows you the line of thinking of the local townships. You can read more from this article. The whole thing is kind of in a stalemate.
https://www.tnonline.com/2012/nov/24/fish-passage-proposed-parryville-dam
All good points and all are already taken into consideration. Tribs are inventoried, photographed along with aerial drone shots. Most have wild trout reproduction. A good number run through or are obstructed on railroad property and then you have the pohopoco which could be a huge boost to the Lehigh if the dam at its mouth were removed. Numerous parties have been contacted.
The dam at the mouth of the “PO” shows you the line of thinking of the local townships. You can read more from this article. The whole thing is kind of in a stalemate.
https://www.tnonline.com/2012/nov/24/fish-passage-proposed-parryville-dam
NickR
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Good video. Thanks for sharing Krayfish. It’s is important to note that the Lehigh even though it warms up in the summer months has an astounding number of cold tributaries and the fish here use them to survive and reproduce...when you compare a river like the Lehigh to the Delaware Id make the argument that we have way higher quality tribs than the Delaware. If you look at the lower end of the river you have the Little Lehigh, Monocacy Creek and Saucon Creek, all Class A streams that provide spawning grounds and thermal refuge. The whole idea of restoring and good care taking on headwater streams is a fantastic idea because those streams will take care of everything downstream. At this moment all of those streams I just mentioned are managed mainly as a supermarket for meat hunters. We have a way better fishery on our hands than has been documented on paper. It is also important that we keep in mind the Lehigh is unique and that our fish aren’t Delaware fish. They are uniquely adapted to our river and have learned how to survive here the same way a Delaware fish is adapted to the Delaware...if you guys haven’t read the fish studies up there you should. Those wild fish do some whacky things to survive and there is documented evidence that even with an abundance of cold water releases the stocked fish in that system can’t figure out how to survive. The radio tag studies on stocked fish there turned up mainly dead tags...meaning that when the water warmed those fish stayed put and expired.
The Lehigh is a very complex fishery and quite the rabbit hole and the deeper you go into that rabbit hole the river gives up more secrets...i spend a lot of time on the river and it continues to surprise and these fish amaze me. I assure you if you put your time in on the Lehigh it will provide you with some of the most rewarding fishing experiences you will ever have but you have to take your lumps first.
Interestingly enough when I asked a PFBC representative why the Lehigh is being managed solely as a put and take stocked fishery it is because they view the Lehigh as a marginal trout fishery and that fish do not survive in the Lehigh from year to year...I’d have to agree...the stocked fish do not fare very well. I guess they occasionally hold over? The wild fish however, are another story. Weird! Because we catch fish, with a large percentage of them being wild in every month of the year and there are no fall or winter stockings...for the past 3-4 months it’s been nothing but wild browns on streamers all ranging between 18-24 inches. What other rivers in PA consistently produce fish like that? I’m really not sure why the Lehigh doesn’t meet PFBCs requirements to receive more fish friendly management. Is it a temperature threshold?
There are plenty of rivers out west that get “too warm.” They close the river to fishing when that happens! What do we do? We give the river a death sentence and let the meat hunters have free reign on it and stock the living daylights out of it...I find this all interesting because the Pohopoco is managed pretty much the exact same way as the Lehigh yet it has a documented Class a population and year round coldwater yet they stock it and the meat hunters vacuum fish out of there left and right. That’s a double standard if I’ve ever seen one.
The management here makes very little sense to me. If there was a set of rules we played by here some of these management issues would be easier to navigate. As it stands some of our management practices make very little sense and show very little regard for the fish. I’ve spoken with a good friend, Eric Richard who frequents Perry County rivers and streams about this and the one thing that never seems to get accounted for in our management of fisheries here is “movement” and how much these wild brown trout use “marginal” (not so marginal water in our eyes) waters to survive and grow large. I don’t know that our state has ever truly managed for these migratory fish. The lower ends of the Lehigh tribs provide almost zero regulatory protections for these migratory fish. Eric is seeing much of the same stuff in his waters in Perry County that we are seeing here in the Lehigh.
The Lehigh is a very complex fishery and quite the rabbit hole and the deeper you go into that rabbit hole the river gives up more secrets...i spend a lot of time on the river and it continues to surprise and these fish amaze me. I assure you if you put your time in on the Lehigh it will provide you with some of the most rewarding fishing experiences you will ever have but you have to take your lumps first.
Interestingly enough when I asked a PFBC representative why the Lehigh is being managed solely as a put and take stocked fishery it is because they view the Lehigh as a marginal trout fishery and that fish do not survive in the Lehigh from year to year...I’d have to agree...the stocked fish do not fare very well. I guess they occasionally hold over? The wild fish however, are another story. Weird! Because we catch fish, with a large percentage of them being wild in every month of the year and there are no fall or winter stockings...for the past 3-4 months it’s been nothing but wild browns on streamers all ranging between 18-24 inches. What other rivers in PA consistently produce fish like that? I’m really not sure why the Lehigh doesn’t meet PFBCs requirements to receive more fish friendly management. Is it a temperature threshold?
There are plenty of rivers out west that get “too warm.” They close the river to fishing when that happens! What do we do? We give the river a death sentence and let the meat hunters have free reign on it and stock the living daylights out of it...I find this all interesting because the Pohopoco is managed pretty much the exact same way as the Lehigh yet it has a documented Class a population and year round coldwater yet they stock it and the meat hunters vacuum fish out of there left and right. That’s a double standard if I’ve ever seen one.
The management here makes very little sense to me. If there was a set of rules we played by here some of these management issues would be easier to navigate. As it stands some of our management practices make very little sense and show very little regard for the fish. I’ve spoken with a good friend, Eric Richard who frequents Perry County rivers and streams about this and the one thing that never seems to get accounted for in our management of fisheries here is “movement” and how much these wild brown trout use “marginal” (not so marginal water in our eyes) waters to survive and grow large. I don’t know that our state has ever truly managed for these migratory fish. The lower ends of the Lehigh tribs provide almost zero regulatory protections for these migratory fish. Eric is seeing much of the same stuff in his waters in Perry County that we are seeing here in the Lehigh.
Fly-Swatter
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"The whole idea of restoring and good care taking on headwater streams is a fantastic idea because those streams will take care of everything downstream."
BINGO!
Overall, great thoughts. The only missing piece is economics.
BINGO!
Overall, great thoughts. The only missing piece is economics.
S
Smike
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With all due respect Mike, I agree with your generalities, but these are tribs are not unknown in terms of size, fish species make up, or documented brown trout being held up from passage for spawning activity. Although more studies would be beneficial and should be highly productive based on years of observations. Also funding is available through the Palmerton Superfund site (which PFBC is voting member on how those funds are spent btw) Recent attempts to mitigate the blockage on the PO near the mouth of the Lehigh have not passed approval from the Palmerton SF board. I was told directly by John Arway that the fish ladder proposal on the PO would not work based on the fish ladder studies on the Susquehanna river. (A river that is more than 200X the volume of the PO) There are many reasons the comparison is not useful.
Dam removal is a national conservation movement, and with many examples just in PA along, its seems foolish not to continue to pursue. There is also discussions ongoing regarding the City of Easton (owners of the dam at the mouth of the Delaware) in how to address fish passages issues there. (again there is documented movement of trout through the fish ladders on the lower Lehigh dams)
The opportunities to get funding for these types of projects is at an all time high, based on number of available grants and current national discourse for stream interconnectivity.
This is not internet bantering just for fun, there are real and just conservation targets regarding the tribs and dams and how they can support wild fish in the river proper.
sarce
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As an outside observer with no stake in this, I'm just kind of finding it baffling how everything being advocated for that could benefit the fishery is immediately getting pushback and a laundry list of reasons why things won't work. It just all seems so cynical. I would think the PFBC would show some excitement about the opportunity rather than all this negativity.
The one point I'd agree with is to be careful about opening up brook trout-only tributaries to brown trout. Look at the Gunpowder tailwater for an example of where the strong tailwater brown trout population wrecked the brook trout population in just about every single tributary. There were no natural barriers to restrict the browns, most of the tributaries aren't steep enough. But on the many Lehigh tribs that already have browns, it seems like a great idea that works around the dam release issues. I'm looking forward to some day traveling up from VA to fish it.
The one point I'd agree with is to be careful about opening up brook trout-only tributaries to brown trout. Look at the Gunpowder tailwater for an example of where the strong tailwater brown trout population wrecked the brook trout population in just about every single tributary. There were no natural barriers to restrict the browns, most of the tributaries aren't steep enough. But on the many Lehigh tribs that already have browns, it seems like a great idea that works around the dam release issues. I'm looking forward to some day traveling up from VA to fish it.
NickR
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Fly Swatter,
You are right...I didn’t touch on economics. I didn’t think it was necessary because having a year round cold tail water would have an obvious impact to the area...it would bring in a tremendous amount of tourism and money and it would increase recreational opportunities on the river drastically. In the end it isn’t just about money, it’s about cleaner/colder water and improving our quality of life here. As far as I’m concerned you can’t even put a price tag on that. The people and wildlife of Pennsylvania deserves this! Having a diversified economy is a good thing...can’t be all strip malls, fracking and mining.
You are right...I didn’t touch on economics. I didn’t think it was necessary because having a year round cold tail water would have an obvious impact to the area...it would bring in a tremendous amount of tourism and money and it would increase recreational opportunities on the river drastically. In the end it isn’t just about money, it’s about cleaner/colder water and improving our quality of life here. As far as I’m concerned you can’t even put a price tag on that. The people and wildlife of Pennsylvania deserves this! Having a diversified economy is a good thing...can’t be all strip malls, fracking and mining.
Swattie87
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sarce - There’s a couple tiny Gorge tribs with natural barriers that may still be all Brookies, or at least nearly all Brookies. Most of the tribs though are already predominantly Browns, or have a very well established population of Browns. That ship has probably already sailed, and I wouldn’t let that be a hurdle to this movement.
NickR
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Sarce, pretty much every trib to the Lehigh that supports a wild
Population already has brown trout in it. The only thing that will protect brook trout here is steep and natural obstructions like big waterfalls and cliffs. If you find browns above those obstructions then we know they were stocked at some point. Case in point and further evidence that we need to reign in the rampant stocking. It’s a good point that some of the barriers protect brook trout from the browns but those barriers also hurt the brook trout because they lose connectivity to the big river. Imagine a year round cold tailwater with open tribs...this system could probably pump out some Newfoundland sized brook trout.
Population already has brown trout in it. The only thing that will protect brook trout here is steep and natural obstructions like big waterfalls and cliffs. If you find browns above those obstructions then we know they were stocked at some point. Case in point and further evidence that we need to reign in the rampant stocking. It’s a good point that some of the barriers protect brook trout from the browns but those barriers also hurt the brook trout because they lose connectivity to the big river. Imagine a year round cold tailwater with open tribs...this system could probably pump out some Newfoundland sized brook trout.
S
Smike
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There are only two tribs left in the gorge proper with Brook Trout. Both on the west side and each with a very high gradient and man made spill overs of 10' at the base. These would and should stay as Brook trout fisheries. The other 2 main tribs on the East side contain Brown trout for at least the first 4-5 miles already, despite the natural barriers (one is a 15' waterfall)
The other just outside of the gorge is Jeans Run a designated Brook Trout enhancement stream which feeds a brown trout filled trib about 1 mile from the mouth of the Lehigh. Natural barriers exist and seem to be working quite well.
