Snakehead update: The Giving Pond, DCNR lake, upper Bucks Co

[poopdeck]

The article is about some guy who likes to fish for snakeheads. It's not an article on snakesHeads. Nothing interesting on snakeheads at all.

 

[Fredrick]

What I got from the article is that the snakehead is a great game fish and not the monster people made it out to be .Also the MD DNR is disconnected from of the value of this fish to anglers in their state . And Noah Bressman, a Ph.D. candidate at Wake Forest University, is doing a thesis on northern snakeheads’ mysterious locomotive abilities, and MD DNR has agreed to help him.

 

[tomgamber]

SO THEY'VE AGREED TO HELP WITH RESEARCH BUT THEY ARE DISCONNECTED.

 

[Fredrick]

tomgamber wrote:
SO THEY'VE AGREED TO HELP WITH RESEARCH BUT THEY ARE DISCONNECTED.

Yes, the majority of the fisherman there appreciate the fish and obviously the DNR does not and its still requesting the fish be killed . The study is on the snakeheads ability to move on land, a more productive study would be the fishes effect on the local fish populations. I was going to write naitive fish but only about a quater of the fish in the potomac are native to that watershed.

 

[poopdeck]

I think everybody agrees that it's a wonderful game fish. The disconnect is the need to control their population. The snakehead aficionados want them to be totally unregulated and left to run amuck without a care to other species.

Personally I could not care any less about there ability to walk, crawl or roll on land. current studies conclude their populations have to be kept in check as best as possible. This doesn't mean eradicate them, just control their place in the water. Anybody who believes they should be left alone to do their thing simply wants to fish for them with no regard to their impact on the environment.

 

[afishinado]

Here are two articles that may interest readers:

Study of snakehead effect on LM Bass

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304380009002592

 

[Fredrick]

Thanks for the articles but the best up to date info is from John Odenkirk
in tracking effects of the Northern Snakehead .

Another good article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2017/06/16/apparently-the-once-feared-snakehead-is-just-another-fish-in-the-potomac/?utm_term=.657c51ff7e8b

 

[poopdeck]

"What we think is happening is intense exploitation, because everybody now likes to eat them, they like to catch them. The bow fishery has taken off. People are hunting them at night with bows and arrows and lights, Odenkirk told WTOP."

"Hopefully we don’t have a whole lot to worry about, he said."

"But people continue to keep live snakeheads and move them to new waterways in the area.That’s why Odenkirk says his department will push to get the penalty for intentionally moving the fish bumped up from a Class 3 misdemeanor involving only fines, to a more severe Class 2 misdemeanor."

It seems to me that Odenkirk is saying the same thing I am. Their population needs to be held in check by aggressive harvesting. Your posting his reports to support your position of not killing snakeheads yet Odenkirk credits killing them with keeping them in check after a 950% increase in their population in just two years.

If Odenkirk is not alarmed by the fishes ability to destroy an eco system why is he pushing for increased penalties for intentionally moving the fish to other waterways.

Sure they are fun to catch but they still need to be controlled and your own expert supports and encourages their removal from the waterways.

 

[Fredrick]

I'm all for harvesting the fish and eating it but I'm against senseless killing of the fish and the portrayal of it as a devil fish thats going to eat every fish in the water . Hence the title of the recent article I posted tittled Apparently, the once-feared snakehead is just another fish in the Potomac. And most fish species when introduced into a new area have population booms at first then they taper off(i'm sure JO mentioned that as well) . I don't believe any agency is for the introduction of this fish to new waters and I agree on increasing the penalty for introduction but its still wont be enough deterrent until they stop the sale of snakehead meat to fish markets and restaurants.

 

[poopdeck]

Fredrick wrote:
I'm all for harvesting the fish and eating it but I'm against senseless killing of the fish and the portrayal of it as a devil fish thats going to eat every fish in the water . Hence the title of the recent article I posted tittled Apparently, the once-feared snakehead is just another fish in the Potomac. And most fish species when introduced into a new area have population booms at first then they taper off(i'm sure JO mentioned that as well) .

A newspaper reporter says it's just another fish. The biologist says they need aggressive harvesting to keep them from spreading and they need increased penlities for those that spread them.

The North American journal on fisheries management says this:

"Of sites where juvenile largemouth bass were collected, 10.6% were associated with northern snakehead. Using population modeling and measured predator–prey interactions, we determined that this level of co-occurrence would result in a 3.8% reduction in largemouth bass population size. This prediction is consistent with current observations that indicate there has not been a negative trend in the largemouth bass fishery. As co-occurrence was increased in the model, however, the negative impact of northern snakehead on largemouth bass monotonically increased. The time required for such increases in northern snakehead distribution is not known. If northern snakehead continues to expand its range in the absence of control measures, then our population model, with its assumptions, predicts a 35.5% reduction in the abundance of largemouth bass in the Potomac River."

Put simply, if the snakehead range is increased it would have a devastating effect on LMB. It also shows that snakeheads and LMB can live harmoniously together as long as the snakeheads population and range are aggressively kept in check.

You can have your snakehead fishing even with an aggressive harvest but other species will suffer without it. It's very plain to see and every fisheries management biologist realizes this including Odenkirk.

Odenkirk is the MD expert on snakeheads. MD is strongly encouraging death to every snakehead caught. MD is listening to Odenkirk on what to do about the snakehead problem and they are basing their laws and fisheries management strategy on his recommendations. That said, it's painfully obvious Odenkirk is advocating death to all snakeheads caught for the help of the fisheriess including snakehead fishing and I'm not sure how anybody can see it or report it any differently.

 

[moon1284]

Which invasive species is going to ruin a fishery first? Zebra Mussels? Didymo? New Zealand Mud Snails? Round Gobies? Eurasian Milfoil? Snakeheads? Asian Carp? By now the only fish species left in the country should be brown trout, gobies, asain carp, and snakeheads.

 

[sarce]

Large(ish) predatory fish in the tidal Potomac:

Blue, Flathead, and Channel Catfish
Longnose Gar
Snakeheads
Striped Bass
Largemouth Bass
Smallmouth Bass
Walleye
Oddball musky/tiger musky from time to time


Of the above, here are the native ones:

Channel Catfish
Striped Bass
Longnose Gar (not sure)

Just for perspective...

My opinion is the snakehead debate is silly, we are just picking and choosing which invasive species we like best.

 

[afishinado]

There are close to 100 native species residing in the Potomac ecosystem. Nothing can really be done about snakeheads, but having yet another invasive species in it's waters is not a good thing. Most especially since it's impact on the native fish is totally unknown as well as it's impact on the entire ecosystem.

Those that say, "hey, they'll all invasive anyway", remind me of those who say, "hey, that stream already polluted anyway, a little more pollution is no big deal."

FISHES OF THE FRESHWATER POTOMAC

Taxonomic Order Common Name Native Status
(N = Native, I = Introduced)

O. Petromyzontiformes
F.Petromyzontidae - lampreys
1. Lampetra appendix (American Brook Lamprey) N
2. Lampetra aepyptera (Least Brook Lamprey) N
3. Petromyzon marinus (Sea Lamprey) N
O. Acipenseriformes
F. Acipenseridae- sturgeons
4. Acipenser brevirostrum (Shortnose Sturgeon) N
5. Acipenser oxyrhynchus (Atlantic Sturgeon) N
O. Semionotiformes
F. Lepisosteidae - gars
6. Lepisosteus osseus (Longnose Gar) N
O. Amiiformes
F. Amiidae - bowfins
7. Amia calva (Bowfin) N?
O. Anguilliformes
F. Anguillidae - freshwater eels
8. Anguilla rostrata (American Eel) N
O. Clupeiformes
F. Clupeidae - herrings
9. Alosa pseudoharengus (Alewife Herring) N
10. Alosa aestivalis (Blueback Herring) N
11. Alosa mediocris (Hickory Shad) N
12 Alosa sapidissima (American Shad) N
13. Dorosoma cepedianum (Gizzard Shad) N
14. Dorosoma pretenense (Threadfin Shad) I
15. Brevoorita tyrannus (Atlantic Menhaden, tidal only) N
F. Engraulidae - anchovies
16. Anchoa mitchilli (Bay Anchovy, tidal only) N
O. Salmoniformes
F. Salmonidae - trouts
17. Salmo trutta (Brown Trout) I
18. Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow Trout) I
Oncorhynchus tshawytscha (California Chinook Salmon) I -Extirpated
Oncorhynchus kisutch (Coho Salmon) I -Extirpated
Oncorhynchus nerka (Sockeye Salmon) I -Extirpated
? Salvelinus namaycush (Lake Trout) I - (Jennings Randolph
Dam, uncertain status)
19. Salvelinus fontinalis (Brook Trout) N
20. Salmo clarki (Cutthroat Trout) I
F. Umbridae - mudminnows
21. Umbra pygmaea (Eastern Mudminnow) N
F. Esocidae - pikes
22. Esox americanus (Redfin Pickerel) N
23. Esox niger (Chain Pickerel) N
24. Esox lucius (Northern Pike) I
25. Esox masquinongy (Muskellunge) I
O. Cypriniformes
F.Cyprinidae - carps and minnows
26. Campostoma anomalum (Central Stoneroller) N
27. Cyprinus carpio (Common Carp) I
28. Carassius auratus (Goldfish) I
29. Ctenopharyngodon idella (Grass Carp) I
30. Ericymba buccata (Silverjaw Minnow) N?
31. Exoglossum maxillinqua (Cutlips Minnow) N
32. Nocomis micropogon (River Chub) N
33. Nocomis leptocephalus (Bluehead Chub) N
34. Notemigonus crysoleucas (Golden Shiner) N
35. Clinostomus funduloides (Rosyside Dace) N
36. Notropis chalybaeus (Ironcolor Shiner) N
37. Notropis bifrenatus (Bridle Shiner) N
38. Notropis procne (Swallowtail Shiner) N
39. Notropis amoenus (Comely Shiner) N
40. Notropis rubellus (Rosyface Shiner) N
41. Notropis volucellus (Mimic Shiner) N
42. Notropis hudsonius (Spottailed Shiner) N
43. Notropis atherinoides (Emerald Shiner) I-(Jennings Randolph)
44. Cyprinella analostanus
45. Cyprinella spilopterus (Spotfin Shiner) N
(Satinfin Shiner) N
46. Luxilus cornutus (Common Shiner) N
47. Luxilus chrysocephalus (Striped Shiner) I
48. Hybognathus regius (Eastern Silvery Minnow) N
Leuciscus idus (Ide) I-Extirpated
49. Pimephales promelas (Fathead Minnow) I
50. Pimephales notatus (Bluntnose Minnow) I?
51. Rhinichthys atratulus (Blacknose Dace) N
52 Rhinichthys cataractae (Longnose Dace) N
53. Semotilus atromaculatus (Creek Chub) N
54. Semotilus corporalis (Fallfish) N
55. Margariscus margarita (Pearl Dace) N
F.Catostomidae - suckers
56. Carpoides cyprinus (Quillback Sucker) N
57. Erimyzon oblongus (Creek Chubsucker) N
58. Catostomus commersoni (White Sucker) N
59. Hypentelium nigricans (Northern Hog Sucker) N
60. Moxostoma erythrurum (Golden Redhorse) I?
61. Moxostoma macrolepidotum (Shorthead Redhorse) N
62. Thoburnia rhothoeca (Torrent Sucker) N?
O.Siluriformes
F.Ictaluridae - bullhead catfishes
63. Ameiurus natalis (Yellow Bullhead Catfish) N
64. Ameiurus nebulosus (Brown Bullhead Catfish) N
65. Ameiurus catus (White Catfish, tidal only) N
66. Ictalurus punctatus (Channel Catfish) I
67. Ictalurus furcatus (Blue Catfish) I
68. Phylodictus olivarus (Flathead Catfish) I
69. Noturus gyrinus (Tadpole Madtom) N
70. Noturus insignis (Margined Madtom) N
O. Percopsiformes
F. Percopsidae - trout perches
Percopsis omiscomaycus (Trout Perch) I-Extirpated
F. Aphredoderidae - pirate perches
Aphredoderus sayanus (Pirate Perch) N-Coastal Plain
O. Antheriniformes
F. Belonidae - needlefishes
71. Strongylura marina (Atlantic Needlefish, tidal only) N
F. Antherinidae - silversides
72. Menidia beryllina (Inland Silversides) N
Labidesthes sicculus (Brook Silversides) I-Extirpated
F. Poeciliidae - livebearers
73. Gambusia holbrooki (Eastern Mosquitofish) N
74. Poecilia reticulata (Guppy) I
F. Cyprinodontidae - killifishes
75. Cyprinodon variegatus (Sheepshead Minnow) N
76. Fundulus heteroclistus (Mummichog Killifish) N
77. Fundulus diaphanus (Banded Killifish) N
78. Fundulus luciae (Spotfin Killifish) N
79. Fundulus parva (Rainwater Killifish) N
O. Perciformes
F. Centrarchidae - sunfishes
80. Acantharchus pomotis (Mud Sunfish) N
81. Enneacanthus gloriosus (Bluespotted Sunfish) N
82. Enneacanthus obesus (Banded Sunfish) N
83. Centrarchus macropterus (Flier Sunfish) N?
84. Ambloplites rupestris (Rock Bass) I
85. Chaenobryttus gulosus (Warmouth Sunfish) I?
86. Lepomis cyanellus (Green Sunfish) I?
87. Lepomis macrochirus (Bluegill Sunfish) I
88. Lepomis auritus (Redbreast Sunfish) N
89. Lepomis megalotis (Longear Sunfish) I
90. Lepomis microlotis (Redear Sunfish) I
91. Lepomis gibbosus (Pumpkinseed Sunfish) N
92. Micropterus salmoides (Largemouth Bass) I
93. Micropterus dolomieui (Smallmouth Bass) I
94. Pomoxis nigromaculatus (Black Crappie) I?
95. Pomoxis annularis (White Crappie) I
F. Percidae - perches
96. Etheostoma blennioides (Greensided Darter) I?
97. Etheostoma flabellare (Fantailed Darter) N
98. Etheostoma olmstedi (Tesselated Darter) N
99. Etheostoma caeruleum (Rainbow Darter) I?
100. Etheostoma vitreum (Glassy Darter) N?
101. Etheostoma fusiforme (Swamp Darter) N
102. Percina peltata (Shield Darter) N
103. Percina notogramma (Striped Back Darter) N
Percina caprodes (Log Perch) N?-Extirpated
104. Perca flavescens (Yellow Perch) N
105. Sander vitreus (Walleye) I?
F. Cottidae - sculpins
106. Cottus caeruleomentum (Blue Ridge Sculpin) N
107. Cottus cognatus (Slimy Sculpin) N
108. Cottus bairdi (Mottled Sculpin) N
109. Cottus girardi (Potomac Sculpin) N
F. Percichthydae - temperate basses
110 Morone americanus (White Perch) N
111. Morone saxatilis (Striped Bass) N
F. Channidae - Snakeheads
112. Channa argus (Northern Snakehead) I
The following can also be found in tidal freshwater portions of the Potomac River:
F. Mugulidae - mullets
113. Mugil cephalus (Striped Mullet) N
F. Sciaenidae - drums
114. Leiostomus xanthurus (Spot) N
115. Cynoscion nebulosus (Spotted Seatrout) N
116. Micropogonias undulatus (Atlantic Croaker) N
117. Sciaenops ocellata (Red Drum) N
Order Pleuronectiformes
F. Soleidae - soles
118. Trinectes maculatus (Hogchoker) N

 

[poopdeck]

^..... not only this but not everybody cares to read about the snakehead outside of feel good newspaper articles about them not being a Frankenfish. Or articles that pick and choose to print what they believe or want to hear whatbiologists are saying. The snakehead is a much more serious threat to the system then a brown trout or Gobie.

Granted there is still a lot of studying to be done on them but there is an immense amount of information out there from biologists where people should want to kill them on the spot. The lastest concern, born from 12 years of study, is the snakeheads likelyhood to carry fish killing diseases on top of their crazy breeding, ferocious appetite and ability to completely take over an area.

I appreciate angler love to fish for them but one must not turn it into an emotional issue. Understanding the facts as the experts present to us is a must. Reading newspaper articles written with cherry picked information that totally misses on the facts, like how Odenkirk is always misquoted, is not educating oneself on the issue.

 

[Fredrick]

I guess we will just have wait and see who wins the debate .



https://youtu.be/os9gX0fZgsE

 

[sarce]

Unlike pollution though, the snakeheads are impossible to eliminate.

I'm saying there are so many non native predators already, including largemouths, that have all had negative impacts on native baitfish and amphibians. Where's the outrage about that? If snakeheads impact bass, who cares? Just because bass have been in the river longer doesn't give them any more of a right to have been put there in the first place.

I'd feel differently if there was a way to get rid of them. I've seen the massive insanely dense swamps they live in. We're not talking about a mile long section of trout stream and shocking out the browns to let brookies come back. They're not going anywhere and by now they have been confirmed in basically every Chesapeake trib on both sides of the bay.

Of course I would like if they hadn't been introduced to begin with, but we're 15 years past that point. There's nothing wrong with keeping up the pressure to control the numbers. But it's silly to do it because we arbitrarily think LMB are more worthy of protection.

They are supposed to taste great, and I'll be cooking one up if I ever figure out how to catch one. But as far as impacts on native fish, what's the point in blaming snakeheads when all those other introduced predators have been causing the exact same problem for 100+ years? Best we can hope for is not to introduce anything else.

 

[sarce]

Also noticed from your post Afish that channel cats are introduced, my bad, I didn't know that.

 

[afishinado]

Attitudes towards introducing nonnative species have changed and are changing. The snakeheads were illegally introduced from all accounts I have read and nothing really can be done to get rid of them. Hopefully they find a small niche in the ecosystem without drastically effecting other species, especially native ones.

To demonstrate how things have changed, from the list above of introduced species, check out some of the crazy ones introduced. It's like throwing poop against the wall to see what sticks!:

Salmo trutta (Brown Trout) I
Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow Trout) I
Oncorhynchus tshawytscha (California Chinook Salmon) I -Extirpated
Oncorhynchus kisutch (Coho Salmon) I -Extirpated
Oncorhynchus nerka (Sockeye Salmon) I -Extirpated
? Salvelinus namaycush (Lake Trout) I - (Jennings Randolph
Dam, uncertain status)
Salmo clarki (Cutthroat Trout) I
Salvelinus fontinalis (Brook Trout) N

All thrown on top of poor Sal!...the last one on the list and the only one that actually belongs there!

Most on the stocked salmonids have come and gone. Hopefully lessons have been learned and fisheries biologist in the future will not mess with stocking even more species.

Anyway, hopefully it all works out.

 

[moon1284]

I don't and won't fish for snakehead. Or carp, or catfish, or even largemouth bass. I pretty much only fish for trout and salmon. With that being said everytime there is a new invasive species it's going to ruin lake Erie, or it's going to ruin the finger lakes in, or in this case it's going to ruin the Potomac. That never happens. Nature is much more resilient than most people believe.

 

[afishinado]

moon1284 wrote:
I don't and won't fish for snakehead. Or carp, or catfish, or even largemouth bass. I pretty much only fish for trout and salmon. With that being said everytime there is a new invasive species it's going to ruin lake Erie, or it's going to ruin the finger lakes in, or in this case it's going to ruin the Potomac. That never happens. Nature is much more resilient than most people believe.

Sometimes it does happen...