Size change?

[TheAppalachianAngler]

Where are you reading "C&R has no effect on population size structure?"

You didn't read the results of the wild brook trout enhancement study?

My picture and me tagging you was specifically to answer the date question of when the size limit changed.

My comment was a separate subject in relation to something said in the picture.

They can't have it both ways

 

[Mike]

yea tour right weird and not accurate. Maryland DNR actually studies their brook trout and has a brook trout biologist.

“
USR Zero Creel Limit Area restricts anglers to catch-and-release (for brook trout) using artificial lures only. These regulations were adopted
because prior research suggested this would
reduce total brook trout mortality yet still allow
year-round recreational angling opportunity. In conjunction with the regulation change, DNR implemented a long-term monitoring program to compare across tributary populations and years as well as gauge the possible effects of fishing pressure.
The Brook Trout Program has been rigorously
monitoring (annually) and conducting research on
the USR brook trout population over the past
decade and have learned many things that are
guiding management here and elsewhere.
Numerous scientific papers have been published
from these efforts”



“
A very dry autumn followed by a very wet spring results in almost no successful reproduction because the low flows in the fall limit availability and quality of spawning sites, while high flows in spring tend to scour and displace the eggs or very young fish. One year of poor

reproduction can be seen in lower numbers of adults 1 - 3 years later, and back-to-back years (or more) of poor reproduction can reduce the adult population to less than half of what we are used to seeing. This highlights the fisheries management value of protecting the older and larger fish in the population. Larger brook trout produce more and healthier eggs and choose the best spawning sites, increasing the likelihood of reproductive success. Protecting and keeping these large fish in the system ensures that there will
be strong spawning stock present during and following those years with adverse environmental conditions. This also keeps larger fish available for anglers to enjoy a quality recreational fishery even during poor recruitment years.”

I disagree with this. Spawning success is seldom limited by the abundance of adult trout (and bass for that matter). In fact, in ST and a number of other salmonids and warmwater fish populations, small year classes are often naturally followed by large year classes, probably as a natural compensatory mechanism. This has been especially true with trout. Likewise, large year classes may exhibit substantial natural mortality while smaller or moderate year classes may show better survival and individual fish growth through reduced competition for forage. I prefer better survival and growth to large year classes.

 

[troutbert]

You didn't read the results of the wild brook trout enhancement study?

Yes, but how many years/decades ago was that?

 

[TheAppalachianAngler]

Yes, but how many years/decades ago was that?

Less than the year the size minimum changed that you couldn't remember.

I'm not following your point.

So what? It mattered back before so the minimum size changed but not then during the wild brook trout enhancement but does now?

 

[TheAppalachianAngler]

I have to wonder if this minimum size change has anything to do with our other species of wild trout.

 

[steliejim]

Right. And the creel limit was 8, then changed to 5 trout, which was a great move as well.

I remember it being 8 in streams and 6 in lakes

 

[greywolf]

No. It was 6 inches back in the day, then they made it 7 inches. I don't remember what year that was done. But the reason given was to allow more brook trout to spawn.

I think raising the limit to 9 inches would result in more brook trout spawning.

Just my humble opinion, but I think brook trout reach adulthood at 8 inches, while 7 inch brook trout are "adolescents.."

There is a big difference between 7 inch brook trout and 8 inch brook trout. Their body conformation changes. 8 inch brook trout grow higher and wider. The increase in length from 7 inches to 8 inches is not that great, but from what I've seen they add a lot of volume and weight.

So it makes sense that these larger, heavier 8 inch trout would produce substantially more eggs than the 7 inch brook trout.

Yeah I remember 6" being the minimum and they used to stock a lot of 8 inch trout back then. I am all for raising the minimum size if it will reduce harvest of wild brook trout

 

[Fish Sticks]

I disagree with this. Spawning success is seldom limited by the abundance of adult trout (and bass for that matter). In fact, in ST and a number of other salmonids and warmwater fish populations, small year classes are often naturally followed by large year classes, probably as a natural compensatory mechanism. This has been especially true with trout. Likewise, large year classes may exhibit substantial natural mortality while smaller or moderate year classes may show better survival and individual fish growth through reduced competition for forage. I prefer better survival and growth to large year classes.

They have a strictly dedicated brook trout biologist and have years of intensive data collection in that watershed by maryland DNR, USGS, and others.

 

[CRB]

who are they?
I cant fallow these posts as each are just fragments and excerpts where are FACTS coming from??

 

[Fish Sticks]

who are they?

Maryland DNR, they have done SO much more than PA with SO much less brook trout, groundwater, and habitat that can support them. Its amazing when you listen to fisheries scientists what can happen.

 

[TimMurphy]

Maryland DNR, they have done SO much more than PA with SO much less brook trout, groundwater, and habitat that can support them. Its amazing when you listen to fisheries scientists what can happen.

Dear Fish Sticks,

With much less to manage logically it follows that management would be easier to accomplish.

This is Pee-Aye where virtually everyone thinks the Northern Tier, home to most of the best brook trout range, should be open to highway ATV use.

People are leaving Garrett County MD. People are buying recreational property in Potter, Tioga, Clinton, Sullivan and Lycoming Counties in PA and expecting the same amenities that they left behind.

Something has to give?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear Fish Sticks,

With much less to manage logically it follows that management would be easier to accomplish.

This is Pee-Aye where virtually everyone thinks the Northern Tier, home to most of the best brook trout range, should be open to highway ATV use.

People are leaving Garrett County MD. People are buying recreational property in Potter, Tioga, Clinton, Sullivan and Lycoming Counties in PA and expecting the same amenities that they left behind.

Something has to give?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Even though their have less brook trout they dedicate more resources than we do. So yes they have les to manage than us but ironically they do 100 times more to manage it. We have no dedicated brook trout biologist. They have one and an army of partnerships with USGS, EBTJV ect. They just take it seriously.

as far as potter and tioga the route 6 coalition is doing a decent job keeping building and big box stores out. Thats an organization we should support.

The savage headwatwrs are in Ag, damed up into lakes its not a totally pristine watershed the whole way similar to kettle. Similar elevation for most part. Tribs run muddy off corn fields in the case of elk lick a few others that go along concrete roads. Comes back to the psuedo-fragilization of brook trout in peoples perception due to ascribing harms of invasive species to the fishes environment in all cases for the most part historically.


MD’s success is due to their management using an extremely powerful combination of not continually introducing 40-50k invasive trout a year, C&R with documented success, and watershed level management.

Upper Kettle might actually have as much or more potential if it wasn’t subject to perpetual fisheries management malpractice

 

[tomgamber]

 

[TheAppalachianAngler]

how are they studying it? Does anyone know?

 

[TheAppalachianAngler]

Dan Pastore, fish commissioner from Erie County serving the first district, said the reports on the state’s hatcheries reveals the stocked trout are “significantly larger than 7 inches, and my understanding is that most co-op (nurseries) stock larger fish, around 9 inches. The question really is: If we and the co-ops are stocking fish significantly larger than 7 inches but we are allowing you to take a fish just over 7 inches, we’re effectively authorizing the harvesting of wild trout.”

The vast majority of the wild brook trout in the state are under 9 inches.

“We’re going to look at data that supports an 8-inch limit and data that would inform a decision on 8 and 9 inches,” Kuhn said. If the minimum size is changed to 9, most wild brook would be catch and release.

The average length of a stocked trout from the agency’s hatcheries is between 10 and 11 inches long, but some trout are smaller.

“In looking at sizes of fish that were stocked in recent years, the vast majority of those are greater than 10 inches. A minimum size of 9 inches would not be problematic on the surface. However, we need a better understanding of how many fish are stocked below 9 inches, there would be very few. But we can’t be in the business of stocking trout less than the minimum size. The stocked trout program is intended to be a put-and-take fishery,” Kuhn explained.

This is a good step in the right direction.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dan Pastore, fish commissioner from Erie County serving the first district, said the reports on the state’s hatcheries reveals the stocked trout are “significantly larger than 7 inches, and my understanding is that most co-op (nurseries) stock larger fish, around 9 inches. The question really is: If we and the co-ops are stocking fish significantly larger than 7 inches but we are allowing you to take a fish just over 7 inches, we’re effectively authorizing the harvesting of wild trout.”

The vast majority of the wild brook trout in the state are under 9 inches.

“We’re going to look at data that supports an 8-inch limit and data that would inform a decision on 8 and 9 inches,” Kuhn said. If the minimum size is changed to 9, most wild brook would be catch and release.

The average length of a stocked trout from the agency’s hatcheries is between 10 and 11 inches long, but some trout are smaller.

“In looking at sizes of fish that were stocked in recent years, the vast majority of those are greater than 10 inches. A minimum size of 9 inches would not be problematic on the surface. However, we need a better understanding of how many fish are stocked below 9 inches, there would be very few. But we can’t be in the business of stocking trout less than the minimum size. The stocked trout program is intended to be a put-and-take fishery,” Kuhn explained.

This is a good step in the right direction.

I agree it would be better than what we have now for sure. it just irks me that they can’t say “brook trout” or ascribe a clearly present conservation priority/value to it but they can protect brown trout at species level in places. But yea I agree with you if they want to so that I will certainly take it.

 

[HopBack]

Have you ever seen anyone taking out a limit of 7 inch brook trout? Changing the size limit will have zero impact on the native brook trout population.

 

[falcon]

Yeah watch the video Mountain Trout or something like that, They may not keep many but the way they handle fish they might as well. Someone posted the video here awhile ago.

 

[HopBack]

Yeah watch the video Mountain Trout or something like that, They may not keep many but the way they handle fish they might as well. Someone posted the video here awhile ago.

I saw the video, this is a totally separate issue.

 

[HopBack]

Yes. People commonly harvest 7 inch brook trout. Their populations are often sharply cropped off at the legal size limit. Especially where stocking is done over brook trout.

IMHO Someone who is harvesting a 7 inch brook isn’t going to care what the regulations are, they are going to continue to do what they do.