Regulations Question

[afishinado]

k-bob wrote:
"I just wish the FBC would spell things out to avoid all the confusion about if C&R fishing is allowed in non-ATW wild trout streams during the "closed season.""

The PA code section in post 54 says that catching a trout and releasing it outside the trout season "is not a violation." This is true unless that stream is closed to fishing. ATWs have seasons closed to all fishing, where going within 25' of a stream bank with a Popeil Pocket Fisherman on your person is a violation.

So if the stream is not closed to fishing, then strict C&R fishing of trout is not a violation. See pfbc internet info, post 11: "a fish taken out of season from waters where other fishing is lawful is not considered a violation if the fish is "immediately returned unharmed to the water from which it was taken."

Not that cut-and-dry. It's not illegal, but it's not legal either... :roll:

The only waters the Commission closes to fishing are the designated approved trout waters which are closed from March 1 until the opening day of trout season. It is unlawful to fish in them for any species during that period of time.

The Commission does not prohibit fishing in other waters which contain wild trout even when it is unlawful to keep them. So it is not a crime to fish in those waters during the extended trout season.

However, the current regulations also do not specifically permit catch-and-release of wild trout during the time when they are out of season. This means that anglers who fish for trout in anything other than approved trout waters or some specially regulated waters during the extended season could find themselves in violation of the law.

Here's how: The fishing regulations state that it is unlawful to catch fish except during their season. To protect those who may inadvertently catch a fish during the closed season, the regulations state that it is not a violation if a fish is caught during a closed season while legally fishing for another species if the fish is immediately returned unharmed to the water. This does create a strict liability standard: If the fish caught out of season is harmed or killed - even inadvertently - the fact that an angler says he is fishing on a catch-and-release basis is no defense.

Bottom Line: The current regulations are not intended to encourage fishing for any species during the closed season even on a "catch-and-release" basis, but it is not illegal to fish as long as the fish is immediately returned unharmed to the waters from taken. Anglers who target a fish during the closed season could potentially harm the fish and would then be liable for violating the closed season regulation.

Link to source: http://fishandboat.com/images/pages/qa/fish/trout_ext_season.htm

 

[Bamboozle]

Unfortunately to get the whole picture regarding if you can or can't fish, where and if you can, can you keep and if you can keep how many...

...when...

...isn't as simple as looking in one spot in the Summary to get the info which is why this question gets asked every year. Fortunately getting the answer is as simple as making a phone call or three verus reading through 60 posts on the Internet.

If you still are worried after asking over the phone or reading pages of replies, email PFBC Law Enforcement. They WILL reply and you can print a copy of their response and keep it in a pocket in your vest in case you run into a WCO or other law enforcement officer who doesn’t quite know the law, which has happened to me. Enlightenment isn't always received with disdain. On all occasions it has been well received as long as it was delivered appropriately.

Ironically, I posted just such a response from PFBC Law Enforcement on this very site many years ago regarding this same question.

How soon we forget... ;-)

The only thing that I wonder about and failed to specifically ask for info on, is the “stocked Class A’s” thing and if this had anything to do with adding the “Class A section below ATW’s during the Extended Season” confusion to the 2015 Summary. I also wonder how those stocked Class A streams will be treated harvest–wise during the Extended Season.

If you analyze the situation in regards to Class A stream sections below ATW’s, the infamous “22 streams comprising 29 stream sections designated as Class A and that occur downstream of an approved trout water section’’:

Do ANY of the stocked Class A streams meet the criteria of being a Class A section below an ATW section? At first thought I say no, because they are already considered to be ATW, (since they are stocked) therefore they are not “sections below ATW” which is what the Extended Season Harvest restriction on Class A’s is all about.

If that assumption is correct, how do you address the fact that reduced harvest WILL be in place on those Class A streams that are being stocked when you say something like this:

E. Summary of Changes

The Commission determined that Class A wild trout streams should be treated the same as other wild trout streams with respect to harvest during the extended season. Specifically, wild trout streams are closed to harvest beginning 12:01 a.m. the day after Labor Day to midnight the last day of February of the following year.

Unless you just cop out and CYA by saying this:

Under §§?61.1 and 65.12, approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open to harvest with a three fish limit.

I honestly don’t know if they plan to do anything regarding the Extended Season harvest reduction in the stocked Class A’s because there is nothing in the Summary stating there is any regulation change on any of the stocked Class A streams effected.

IMHO the right thing to do would be to eliminate any fall stockings (if they are in place on any of the stocked Class A’s) and end ALL harvest after Labor Day on those stocked Class A streams if only to add at least a tiny bit of consistency to the rules in place for other Class A streams. We are only talking about 10 streams.

Of course doing that would create a new annual question in the form of: “can I legally fish Creek X after Labor Day” that takes 14 pages to answer…

 

[k-bob]

interesting pfbc statement, afish.

"The current regulations are not intended to encourage fishing for any species during the closed season even on a "catch-and-release" basis, but it is not illegal to fish as long as the fish is immediately returned unharmed to the waters from taken. Anglers who target a fish during the closed season could potentially harm the fish and would then be liable for violating the closed season regulation."

right, it is not a violation to fish for trout out of season if the trout is released unharmed. I fish barbless and let em go fast, dont even take pictures, so not too concerned about a citation for fish harm during the closed season...

 

[afishinado]

Bamboozle wrote:
Unfortunately to get the whole picture regarding if you can or can't fish, where and if you can, can you keep and if you can keep how many...

...when...

...isn't as simple as looking in one spot in the Summary to get the info which is why this question gets asked every year. Fortunately getting the answer is as simple as making a phone call or three verus reading through 60 posts on the Internet.

If you still are worried after asking over the phone or reading pages of replies, email PFBC Law Enforcement. They WILL reply and you can print a copy of their response and keep it in a pocket in your vest in case you run into a WCO or other law enforcement officer who doesn’t quite know the law, which has happened to me. Enlightenment isn't always received with disdain. On all occasions it has been well received as long as it was delivered appropriately.

Ironically, I posted just such a response from PFBC Law Enforcement on this very site many years ago regarding this same question.

How soon we forget... ;-)

The only thing that I wonder about and failed to specifically ask for info on, is the “stocked Class A’s” thing and if this had anything to do with adding the “Class A section below ATW’s during the Extended Season” confusion to the 2015 Summary. I also wonder how those stocked Class A streams will be treated harvest–wise during the Extended Season.

If you analyze the situation in regards to Class A stream sections below ATW’s, the infamous “22 streams comprising 29 stream sections designated as Class A and that occur downstream of an approved trout water section’’:

Do ANY of the stocked Class A streams meet the criteria of being a Class A section below an ATW section? At first thought I say no, because they are already considered to be ATW, (since they are stocked) therefore they are not “sections below ATW” which is what the Extended Season Harvest restriction on Class A’s is all about.

If that assumption is correct, how do you address the fact that reduced harvest WILL be in place on those Class A streams that are being stocked when you say something like this:

E. Summary of Changes

The Commission determined that Class A wild trout streams should be treated the same as other wild trout streams with respect to harvest during the extended season. Specifically, wild trout streams are closed to harvest beginning 12:01 a.m. the day after Labor Day to midnight the last day of February of the following year.

Unless you just cop out and CYA by saying this:

Under §§?61.1 and 65.12, approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open to harvest with a three fish limit.

I honestly don’t know if they plan to do anything regarding the Extended Season harvest reduction in the stocked Class A’s because there is nothing in the Summary stating there is any regulation change on any of the stocked Class A streams effected.

IMHO the right thing to do would be to eliminate any fall stockings (if they are in place on any of the stocked Class A’s) and end ALL harvest after Labor Day on those stocked Class A streams if only to add at least a tiny bit of consistency to the rules in place for other Class A streams. We are only talking about 10 streams.

Of course doing that would create a new annual question in the form of: “can I legally fish Creek X after Labor Day” that takes 14 pages to answer…

Actually, they did change the rules. Here is the ruling change:

The Commission determined that Class A wild trout streams should be treated the same as other wild trout streams with respect to harvest during the extended season. Specifically, wild trout streams are closed to harvest beginning 12:01 a.m. the day after Labor Day to midnight the last day of February of the following year. Under §§?61.1 and 65.12, approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open to harvest with a three fish limit. There are currently at least 22 streams comprising 29 stream sections designated as Class A and that occur downstream of an approved trout water section. These amendments will result in all Class A streams being regulated the same relative to harvest and consistent with other wild trout streams that are not approved trout waters. This additional level of protection is consistent with treating the best wild trout waters in this Commonwealth with a greater level of protection than streams whose trout fisheries are partially or totally provided by stocking, where put-and-take is the preferred management approach.

Link to source: http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol44/44-38/1957.html

My interpretation of the above change in regulations is that "all Class A's" includes stocked Class A's. No harvest in stocked class A's after Labor Day and until the opening of harvest season.....Who's on first?....lol

 

[Bamboozle]

Ahhh, but did they?

Is a stocked Class A still a Class A by name (not just by biomass) and on the Class A list which is the official "listing" for Class A streams or...

...will they take the stocked Class A's off the Class A list for the purpose of ignoring their own laws, therefore allowing the stocked Class A streams to allow harvest after Labor Day?

Just for the record, the last time I looked, NONE of the stocked Class A streams had ANY mention of NO Extended Season or NO harvest after Labor Day. It appears as it is business as usual on those Class A streams.

And the bigger question: Can I legally fish Martin's Creek after Labor Day? ;-)

 

[afishinado]

Bamboozle wrote:
Ahhh, but did they?

Is a stocked Class A still a Class A by name (not just by biomass) and on the Class A list which is the official "listing" for Class A streams or...

...will they take the stocked Class A's off the Class A list for the purpose of ignoring their own laws, therefore allowing the stocked Class A streams to allow harvest after Labor Day?

Just for the record, the last time I looked, NONE of the stocked Class A streams had ANY mention of NO Extended Season or NO harvest after Labor Day. It appears as it is business as usual on those Class A streams.

And the bigger question: Can I legally fish Martin's Creek after Labor Day? ;-)

Yes you can!....but the question is "can you clip those bad boys on your stringer?"

Stay tuned..........film at 11!.....:roll:

 

[Chaz]

As it stands today you can fish until Feb 28.

 

[SBecker]

Well thanks for such useful info, Chaz.

 

[tomitrout]

geez, just go fishing.

Fish C&R with a fly and stay away from ATW's.

If you're not willing to risk being cited on the rare chance you'll bump into Mr. WCO out on some random Class A, B, C or D on the day you happen to go, then don't go if you're worried about it or have doubts about the regs. They've got better things to do like chasing poachers who clearly are breaking the law during the 'closed' season than go patrol some off the path stream on the off chance you might be there.

 

[k-bob]

the pa code states that it isnt a violation to catch trout out of season if the fish are immediately released unharmed... to avoid harming fish, practice good c&r: fly fish carefully, reducing the chance of deep hookings; bring fish in very quickly, dont play them out; if a fly is stuck in a fish, leave it in w/ minimal line, dont try to remove it; return fish to the water very quickly; don't fish in elevated water temps. barbless flies may help just a bit.

 

[pcray1231]

They've got better things to do like chasing poachers who clearly are breaking the law during the 'closed' season than go patrol some off the path stream on the off chance you might be there.

If you think it may be illegal to fish somewhere and are worried about Mr. WCO, does that not make you a poacher?

Rationalizing breaking the law is a slippery slope, which is why it's so dang frustrating that we can't figure out what the law actually is.

 

[Fishidiot]

pcray1231 wrote:
If you think it may be illegal to fish somewhere and are worried about Mr. WCO, does that not make you a poacher?

I don't think so - not in this situation.

 

[afishinado]

tomitrout wrote:
geez, just go fishing.

Fish C&R with a fly and stay away from ATW's.

If you're not willing to risk being cited on the rare chance you'll bump into Mr. WCO out on some random Class A, B, C or D on the day you happen to go, then don't go if you're worried about it or have doubts about the regs. They've got better things to do like chasing poachers who clearly are breaking the law during the 'closed' season than go patrol some off the path stream on the off chance you might be there.

^That's pretty much what I do for my own fishing.

But, when people come into the shop and ask about the regulations and where it is legal to fish, I cannot recommend people fish where it's not illegal.....but not legal either. I cannot afford to be wrong and have someone written up for a violation.

 

[k-bob]

that's understandable afish. the law has been this way for at least 15 years, so people will have to make their own calls on it.

 

[afishinado]

k-bob wrote:
that's understandable afish. the law has been this way for at least 15 years, so people will have to make their own calls on it.

Yep KB.

What burns my banana is I've spend my whole life trying to do things right by following all the laws and rules. But every year, when March rolls around and I want to do a little fishin', I have to deal with this murky not illegal but not legal either BS.

Let's face it, there's no good reason (that I can think of, anyway) why non-stocked streams should be closed. Therefore why not clear things up for all license buyers and declare outright that fishing catch & release (unharmed) in non-stocked streams (non-ATW's) is legal March 1st thru the opening of harvest season in early April and mid April, depending on your location.

...end of rant.

 

[JackM]

I find that if I must fish from March 1 to opening day, I can go to special regulation waters and be perfectly legal. I know I have fished wild trout streams on a C & R basis as well, without much consternation.

 

[pcray1231]

For class A's, there's a simple wording solution.

Extended Season (Class A wild trout stream sections)
Jan. 1 through [color=FF0000][d]Feb. 28[/d][/color] [color=00FF00]opening day[/color] and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31 NO HARVEST - catch and immediate release only (no tournaments permitted)
Class A stream listing: fishandboat.com/classa.pdf

The fact that Feb. 28 is even listed there is what gives me pause. If something ends on Feb. 28, what exactly ends?

 

[FarmerDave]

I did not read all the resonses. I stopped part way through pcray's number 7 which answered the question.

"Downstream" never was in the section for closed season (in my lifetime). You always could fish downstream of ATWs. Where you saw the word "downstream" was likely in the part for the extended HARVEST season.

For example... 50 years ago I could fish downstream of the ATW on Tionesta Creek. I still can, today. And I can harvest up to 3 during the extended season. But when the extended season ended, I could still fish there. I just could no longer harvest any trout.

Here is how simple it is.

1. As a general rule, only ATWs are close at any time and that is March 1 to opening day to allow stocking for the upcoming season.

2. As a general rule, non-Approved Trout Waters re not stocked are open to fishing all year round. They are just closed to HARVEST from start of extended season to opening day.

Here is another way to look it it.

If an entire stream is listed as ATW, then it is closed to fishing from March 1 to opening day.

If a particular stream shows an upper and lower boundary for it's ATW, you can fish all year round above and below the boundaries (but not between). You can harvest during extended season downstream, but not upstream.

 

[pcray1231]

Most agree that this is their intent. But they word it horribly.

Tionesta Creek is an interesting one. The Kelletville Bridge is "officially" the upper boundary of the lake, lower boundary of the ATW. But there are several miles of streamlike water below there before it's backed up.

So, technically, if you take the closed season to be ATW's only, then you can fish below the bridge.

Yet, that hole is heavily stocked. The day before opening day NOBODY is fishing. On opening morning they'll be lined up, and 90% of the people are releasing their catch anyway.

I guess that's true of the Tully here in Reading, too, though. Below the DHALO area is ATW-open year round. I've had several tell me they were calling the WCO after seeing me fish all alone in March, and I say "go ahead". On opening morning, it's a zoo.

 

[tomitrout]

Quote:

They've got better things to do like chasing poachers who clearly are breaking the law during the 'closed' season than go patrol some off the path stream on the off chance you might be there.

If you think it may be illegal to fish somewhere and are worried about Mr. WCO, does that not make you a poacher?

Rationalizing breaking the law is a slippery slope, which is why it's so dang frustrating that we can't figure out what the law actually is.

No, because if you haven't figured it out by now, I don't consider my actions to be illegal in any way by my reading & understanding of the regs; C&R with a fly, with no ATW listed water either up or downstream. So I'm not worried one bit about bumping into Mr. WCO and the ensuing interaction because I'm not "Rationalizing breaking the law," I am not breaking the law, I am not doing anything illegal!

If you interperate things differently, fine, then act accordingly, I'm going fishin'..