Regulations Question

[tomitrout]

So basically I would just go fish anywhere you want but stay out of the ATW's and practice C&R w/ a flyrod. For the rare chance that you'd actually bump into a WCO, I'd print out all of the links posted here that support your case, have them laminated and carry it with you at all times to argue your case (and do so in a friendly way with a smile, smiles go a long way). If that then leads to your being cited, take your laminated materials to the hearing and practice, practice, practice your plea before the court, and again, remember to smile and be friendly. You'll either end up a martyr for the cause or there might finally be some clarification on the matter with clearly re-written regs.

If you're not willing to risk being cited, then don't go.

I say go for it.

 

[k-bob]

jmho, but I doubt a citation for C&R on on non-atw would be given... or would stick if it were. since I mostly fish streams that are either unstocked class a (of course this is the vast majority of class a), wbtep, wilderness, or too small to be stocked, I am not too concerned about being cited and will report here if I am.

 

[pcray1231]

For me anyway, the idea of breaking the law with the thought that I'm 99% sure I'll get away with it doesn't sit pretty.

I won't say I've never gone out when I wasn't sure, but I won't admit to it on a public forum!

Because of uncertainty, my personal "general" policy is to stay off of non-listed streams between Sept. 6 and opening day, and to stay off of class A's between Feb. 28 and opening day. I am aware of the verbiage in the Q&A section which says I'm allowed to be there, but that's just not how I interpret what's written in the regs book.

 

[troutbert]

pcray1231 wrote:

The bottom line is that the verbiage of their regs is highly inadequate to express what is and isn't legal. That's not acceptable to me. The law should be clear. It's not.

Agreed. The law is not clear now. And it should be made clear.

In their explanations they are not clear on what is meant by "open" versus closed i.e. whether those refer to harvest, or to fishing altogether.

And they make references to Class A streams and wilderness streams, but don't say what the situation is on unstocked streams that are not Class A or wilderness, which is by far the majority of unstocked wild trout streams.

I thought a few years ago that they had cleared up the language and explanations, but it seems like they've added some new stuff, which has muddied the waters again.

They've "de-clarified" it, to use the Car Talk term.

They should simply divide stream sections into simple categories:
1) approved (stocked) streams
2) streams with special regs (C&R, DH etc.)
3) all others

 

[phiendWMD]

Is anyone aware of a person that was cited and challenged it in court? "I'm guessing it hasn't happened...yet...or the confusion would have been cleared up. It seems inevitable to me someone eventually will end up taking it to court.

It also seems to me it would be much less expensive to make the laws understandable without a law degree than it would to tie up the courts deciding. For both sides.

 

[afishinado]

From the FBC 2015 Regulation page:

Extended Season (Class A wild trout stream sections)
Jan. 1 through Feb. 28 and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31

In the past, Class A's were open to fishing in the month of March since none were stocked. Now that a few Class A's are stocked, all Class A's are closed during the month of March.

Another "benefit" for all of us with the new regs..... :roll:

There are a lot of Class A's out there that we all [d]fished[/d] used to fish in March since the SR streams are so crowded. Sux...IMO.

 

[k-bob]

if the pfbc posts online that the tradl season is for atws, I'll just stay off atws, and class a's in march.

so IMHO streams that can't be stocked - wbtep, wldrness, and the gazillion too narrow ones - can be c&r fished year round.

 

[pcray1231]

1) approved (stocked) streams
2) streams with special regs (C&R, DH etc.)
3) all others

My attempt, from what I have gathered.

1. ATW's.
Opening Day - Sept. 6 - limit 5
Sept. 7-Feb. 28 - limit 3
March 1-opening day - closed to fishing.
A list of ATW's are posted here:

2. Class A's
Opening Day - Sept. 6 - limit 5
Sept. 7-Feb. 28 - open to C&R fishing only
March 1-opening day - closed to fishing
A list of class A's are posted here:

3. Special Regulation Areas:
All are open to fishing year round.
See categorical description for size limits, creel limits, tackle
restrictions, and the dates associated with each.
A list of special regulations areas are posted here, with a
description of what the regulations are.

4. Unlisted
Opening Day-Sept. 6 - limit 5
Sept. 7-March 1 - you may not fish for trout. If targeting other
species which are in season, any trout caught should be
immediately returned to the water unharmed.
This category reflects all waters which are not specifically
included in the above 3 categories.

 

[MKern]

Living in Mifflin County I would just fish another stream; a couple dozen to choose from.

I have even balked at fishing Honey Creek from 3/1 to opening day because technically they stock above the class A section.

 

[SBecker]

Wait, even non stocked Class A streams are closed in March?

 

[pcray1231]

Wait, even non stocked Class A streams are closed in March.

Yes. It was unclear before. Now I think it's clearer, that yes, they are closed.

Unlisted streams are still pretty unclear, and not just for the month of March, but Sept. 6-opening day.

 

[SBecker]

Wonder where the Lehigh stands. Guess I have to speak to my fish commission officer.

 

[tomitrout]

Unlisted streams are still pretty unclear, and not just for the month of March, but Sept. 6-opening day.

Doesn't seem unclear to me. Doesn't say they're closed, so I consider them to be open to fishing. I'm not allowed to harvest any trout, but nothing says I can't go fishing there. Otherwise there are a whooooole lot of folks breaking the law on this site.

Just because smallies aren't 'in season' doesn't mean I can't go fish the Susky...the river isn't closed to fishing just because I can't legally harvest smallmouth. I consider unlisted, unstocked, non-ATW to fall under that interpretation regardless of whether it's Class A, B, C or D. If it's a Class A that's stocked, then it looks like the ATW Regs trump the Class A designation and I'll stay off that water. Otherwise, it's fair game for C&R with a fly as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the time of year.

 

[k-bob]

ATWs are clearly closed to all fishing for part of the year: "These waters are closed to all fishing (including taking of minnows) from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of the trout season. A person shall be deemed to be fishing if he or she has in possession any fishing line, rod or other device that can be used for fishing while on or in any water or on the banks within 25 feet of any water where fishing is prohibited."

here's the PA code on waters that don't close to all fishing:

"§ 61.1. Commonwealth inland waters.

(a) It is unlawful to take, catch, kill or possess fish except during the seasons specified in this section. It is not a violation of this section if a fish caught out of season from water where fishing for other species is lawful is immediately returned unharmed to the waters from which it was taken."


the law says careful C&R on non-closed waters isn't a violation.

 

[Bamboozle]

NOTHING has changed despite what you read.

This is from the horse's mouth so if you don’t believe me, call PFBC Law Enforcement and ask yourself:

Class A Streams and Class A Stream Sections are NOT, I repeat NOT closed to fishing from March 1 to the Regional Opening Day, they are ONLY closed to harvest. The same goes for Class A Streams & Class A Stream sections during the Extended Season from Labor Day until February 28th.

The info put into the 2015 Summary Regulations describing the Extended Season for Class A Streams was added to TRY and clarify that HARVESTING during the Extended Season from Labor Day – February 28th is prohibited on Class A sections that happen to be BELOW an Approved Trout Section. The Class A section (Section 6) of Kishacoquillas or Kish Creek is a perfect example of this situation.

That tidbit was added to try and differentiate those situations from sections below Approved Trout Water that are NOT Class A. In those sections, you CAN harvest 3 fish from Labor Day until Feb 28th.

There is NO Extended Season (for the purpose of a reduced creel limit) on ANY Class A section or Class A stream PERIOD. You can ONLY harvest during the Regular Trout Season despite being permitted to fish year round.

EXCEPT…

Class A streams are ONLY closed to fishing from March 1 until the Regional Opening Day in cases where the Class A Stream is a SECTION of a steam that is listed in the Summary as Approved Trout Water BY NAME with NO sections limits defined. In those cases, the ENTIRE stream is CLOSED to fishing from March 1 until the Regional Opening Day IN THE COUNTY where the stream is listed by name on the Approved Trout Water List.

Three examples (EXCLUDING any Special Regulation Areas) that may help you to understand this exception:

1. The Perkiomen Creek is listed in the Summary as Approved Trout Water in Berks County BY NAME, not by section, therefore the ENTIRE Creek in Berks County INCLUDING the upper Class A sections are closed to fishing from March 1 until Opening Day.

2. The Saucon Creek is listed as Approved Trout Water in the Summary in Northampton County; therefore the ENTIRE creek (except the SR areas) in Northampton County are closed. However, there is an upper Class A section. That section is OPEN to fishing (with NO harvest) from March 1 until Opening Day because it is in Lehigh County, NOT Northampton County and the Saucon Creek is NOT listed in the Summary as Approved Trout Water in Northampton County.

3. Cedar Creek is listed as Approved Trout Water in the Summary in Lehigh County; however it is listed with defined boundary’s with the upper limit being defined as “Lake Muhlenburg outflow downstream to mouth”. That means the Class A section above which is also in Lehigh County IS open to fishing (with NO harvest) from March 1 until Opening Day.

It’s confusing but trust me, I am right and nothing has changed. With the exception described above, you can fish any Class A Stream or Class A Stream Section 365 days a year with NO harvest permitted after Labor Day until the next Regional Opening Day.

Therefore, the Kishacoquillas (Kish) Creek Class A Section, (Section 6) in Mifflin County IS open to fishing now and through Opening Day with NO harvest because it is Class A and there is NO Extended Season HARVEST on Class A Waters PERIOD, even if they are sections below an Approved Trout section.

In regards to non-listed sections or unnamed creeks that are not Class A:

There IS an Extended Season and reduced harvest on NON-Class A sections below Approved Trout. However, there is NO harvest after Labor Day until the next Regional Opening Day on any NON-Class A water NOT below an Approved Trout section but you can fish (with NO harvest) under the same conditions as Class A Streams.

Again, the Extended Season and its revised creel limit only exists on Approved Trout Waters, as does the Closed Season with its exception above.

Got it? ;-)

In regards to whether I would fish that section of Kish Creek after March 1st...

In my experience, all you will be doing is attracting attention to a place that most people won't know they can legally fish. Interpret that as you will but I wouldn't because I don't like crowds and trying to explain to the desperadoes that they can fish but NOT keep will probably be fruitless.

JMHO

 

[SBecker]

Thanks for taking the time to explain, Bamboozled.

 

[k-bob]

thanks. so that's year-round c&r fishing for wild trout on both class a and unlisted streams that have no ATW listing, that right?

 

[Bamboozle]

Yes, with the exception I described above which is important to pay attention to depending on where you plan to fish because streams cross county lines and not all ATW's are listed in every county they cross. (See #2 above)

Believe it or not, your best friend in these situations is the Trout Steam lists in the Summary. That is the LEGAL basis for determining the definition of an Approved Trout Stream and the laws that surround that designation and how they apply to other non-ATW sections.

 

[k-bob]

thanks again.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, there are plenty of ATW's which do not list limits, but where the upper ends are not stocked and hold wild fish (class A or not).

They are most definitely ATW's through and through, even if that section is not stocked.

Others list limits, though, in which case only within those limits is ATW.