Questions about PA trout laws

[PennKev]

redietz wrote:

PennKev wrote:

Only a fraction of the stocked waters are listed in a way such as "X Creek - confluence of X Creek and ABC Run downstream to rt123 bridge."

Why not just say "X Creek - confluence of X Creek and ABC Run and downstream areas."?

It possibly has to do with access to the stream. If the downstream area is privately owned and posted, the PFBC may not want to give the impression that they're wasting the public's money on water with no access.

Just a guess. I know something similar was true when I lived in California.

I don't know if it's an access thing. I noticed it on a few particularly larger creeks that flow for a long distance and which I know have plenty of access outside of the defined stocked area.

Perhaps, it is simply a way of keeping the public informed on which areas actually get stocked. I dunno for sure though, that's why I asked. On some of these waterways, I think it would be reasonable to NOT close the entire stream/river downstream during the closed period prior to the trout opener. A quirky example is the Allegheny River. It is stocked in it's far upper reaches (Mckean County), but I've never heard anyone seriously argue that it is closed in any of it's lower, larger areas due to this stocking. But if the law is interpreted precisely, that argument could be made as far as I know.

 

[Swattie87]

For streams that are listed as general reg ATW’s, they are closed in March until their respective opening day in their entirety within a given county that they are listed, regardless of the actual specific stocked stretch. I’ve almost made this mistake many times when contemplating where to fish in March.

So in the Allegheny River example, if it’s listed in McKean County as a general reg ATW it’s closed to fishing in all of McKean County from March 1st until opening day, regardless of where it is actually stocked in McKean County. If it’s not listed in other (downstream in this case) counties in which it flows through, it’s open to fish in those counties.

Here’s an interesting one...suppose you have a stream that has an unstocked and listed Class A section, AND is listed as a general reg ATW within the SAME county. Can you fish the Class A section from March 1st to opening day? These regs are seemingly in conflict with one another since you are allowed to fish Class A’s year round. I have a copy of an email a friend sent inquiring about this issue, and the response he got from the PFBC suggested that the ATW reg trumped, and that you should not fish the Class A stretch during that time. Not sure I necessarily agree with that interpretation given the ambiguity, but I have chosen to not fish Class A sections that fall under that circumstance during the closed season since receiving that information. FWIW.

 

[PennKev]

Swattie87 wrote:
For streams that are listed as general reg ATW’s, they are closed in March until their respective opening day in their entirety within a given county that they are listed, regardless of the actual specific stocked stretch. I’ve almost made this mistake many times when contemplating where to fish in March.

So in the Allegheny River example, if it’s listed in McKean County as a general reg ATW it’s closed to fishing in all of McKean County from March 1st until opening day, regardless of where it is actually stocked in McKean County. If it’s not listed in other (downstream in this case) counties in which it flows through, it’s open to fish in those counties.

I could not find anything in the regs to support the premise that " and downstream areas" is only applicable to the county in which a stream is listed.

Here’s an interesting one...suppose you have a stream that has an unstocked and listed Class A section, AND is listed as a general reg ATW within the SAME county. Can you fish the Class A section from March 1st to opening day? These regs are seemingly in conflict with one another since you are allowed to fish Class A’s year round. I have a copy of an email a friend sent inquiring about this issue, and the response he got from the PFBC suggested that the ATW reg trumped, and that you should not fish the Class A stretch during that time. Not sure I necessarily agree with that interpretation given the ambiguity, but I have chosen to not fish Class A sections that fall under that circumstance during the closed season since receiving that information. FWIW.

The table of fishing seasons in the regs booklet certainly suggests that you cannot fish any Class A during the March-Opening Day period as it omits that period but specifically lists the other times of the year as open to C&R in Class A.

http://www.fishandboat.com/Regulations/Documents/bookfish-pocketguide.pdf

The online regs for trout also addresses overlapping ATW Regs and says that such streams are closed where Class A is also stocked:

"Stream sections that are designated as both Stocked Trout Waters and Class A Wild Trout Streams:

located within the Regional Opening Day of Trout Season area are closed to fishing from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the Regional Opening Day of Trout Season.
located within the Regular Opening Day of Trout Season area are closed to fishing from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the Regular Opening Day of Trout Season.
Stream Sections Governed by These Regulations:

Closed to fishing from March 1 until 8 a.m. on Opening Day of Trout Season.
Extended Season: September 4, 2018 through February 28, 2019–No Harvest–Catch and Immediate Release Only."

 

[Swattie87]

Kev - As Mkern mentioned above, the "downstream areas" wording pertains to harvest during the "extended season." Meaning you can only harvest Trout from ATW's or downstream areas during that time. Applying the downstream areas logic generally would result in essentially no fishing anywhere in streams (outside of designated special reg sections) in PA from March 1st to opening day. This would affect more than just Trout fishing. You couldn't fish the Susky for Bass using that same logic for example, as some water upstream of there in that watershed is stocked ATW. This is why in what counties a stream is listed as ATW is important.

Note - It appears ATW is now actually "STW" - Stocked Trout Water - in the reg book. I'm using them interchangeably here as they refer to the same regulation and stream sections...just a new name.

In regard to the Class A and STW regulation as listed in the reg book...Those are streams sections that have been identified as Class A, yet the PFBC is still stocking that same specific Class A stretch. Meaning literally the same specific stream section. The question I posed is a stream that has two different sections, regulated differently within the same county...For example, an unstocked upstream section that is Class A, and a downstream (non Class A) STW section, again within the same county. The examples I'm thinking of aren't on the list of concurring Class A and STW stream sections referenced in the reg book.

Here's a specific example: Northkill Creek in Berks County. Class A from headwaters to Northkill Rd. bridge. Northkill in its entirety is listed as STW for Berks County. Can you fish the Class A stretch in March? I currently choose not to out of caution. The stream my friend emailed the PFBC about is a different stream, but essentially the same situation. I'm sure there are many others across the state in this same scenario too.

Not arguing with you or anyone else. Just illustrates the point that if we as avid and well informed Trout anglers have trouble deciphering this stuff and coming to a consistent conclusion, it probably isn't that clear.

PennKev wrote:

The table of fishing seasons in the regs booklet certainly suggests that you cannot fish any Class A during the March-Opening Day period as it omits that period but specifically lists the other times of the year as open to C&R in Class A.

^I see what you're referencing here...This is interesting, and would essentially suggest that there is to be no Trout fishing (outside of designated open special regs sections) from March 1st to opening day. I believe it used to say somewhere that Class A's are open to year round fishing, but couldn't find it when browsing the regs online this morning. Am I remembering that wrong, did I miss it somewhere, or did this recently change? If it no longer says Class A's are open year round anywhere, based on the listings in the table, then I think that clears it up...No fishing Class A's period March 1st to opening day.

As if I already didn't hate March enough. :hammer:

 

[Dave_W]

Swattie87 wrote:
If it no longer says Class A's are open year round anywhere, based on the listings in the table, then I think that clears it up...No fishing Class A's period March 1st to opening day.

^ This is just ridiculous (the ambiguity in the regs, not Swattie - who is much admired around here).

C&R fishing has always been allowed in non-stocked Class As and if the PFBC has changed that, they should have issued a public announcement and put the matter out for public comment.
Far more likely here, in my view, is just further badly worded regulations and sloppily drafted regs.

I will continue to fish non-stocked Class As without any reservations.

 

[PennKev]

Dave_W wrote:
I will continue to fish non-stocked Class As without any reservations.

As will I, and I'll also continue to fish other unstocked waters during the period closed to harvest also

However, I would still not be entirely comfortable fishing a STW that is stocked in a seperate upstream country during the closed period. I think the regs are vague enough that you could be in for a hassle, at the least, if the wrong people took notice. I don't think the Susquehanna, for instance, is closed if upstream tribs are stocked, but I do think there is a very gray area if an upstream section of the actual Susquehanna is stocked. If Creek X is stocked and you are fishing 100 feet downstream of the county line during the "closed season"... ... i would need to see something from the PAFBC saying that is OK before I did it.

I do agree the presentation of the regs suck. The booklet and web site both need re-worked in unison so that everything is coherent and consistent and most importantly, quick and easy to reference. But that costs money I suppose.

 

[HopBack]

I took and look and you guys are right. The way they word the regs is really terrible. There is not mention that you can specifically fish unstocked Class A waters during the traditional closures, however it does say that you may not fish Stocked Sections of Class A waters.

 

[Swattie87]

Based on the information available in its current formatting to the angler, I think any fishing from March 1st til opening day of Trout outside of specific special reg sections is a calculated risk to varying degrees.

Using my Susky example above...No, I don’t think it’s likely a WCO would cite a guy in a Bass boat in the middle of Susky for fishing in violation of the Trout regs during this time. But you can see the ambiguity clearly.

I think any Trout targeted fishing during this time would be open to the individual interpretation of the WCO you encounter if ever stopped and questioned. I think in many of the examples we’re discussing above the angler would have a reasonable case to dispute a citation based on this same ambiguity, but many, like me, don’t need the hassle and worry. Fishing should be fun, not Legal Interpretation 101. Everyone make up your own minds as you see fit, but personally, I think I’m limiting my March fishing to designated special regs sections only until better formal clarification from the PFBC. I don’t fish much in March generally anyway.

 

[HopBack]

He is the wording taken directly from the PA Code book.

(a) General rule. The extended trout season is in effect from the day after Labor Day until the last day of February of the following year on stocked trout waters and all waters downstream of stocked trout waters. A creel limit of three trout per day and a minimum size limit of 7 inches apply during this season, except Class A wild trout streams where the creel limit is 0 and areas with special regulations.

My interpretation is this law is that it only applies to stocked trout waters. The fuzzy part is when you start talking about a Class A stream that is stocked above the Class A section. Does that make the Class A section closed because all waters downstream of stocked trout waters are closed?

I'm going to steer clear of class A's like this.

 

[cl3]

If you use the PFBC mapping system, you'll note they color stocked streams orange and Class A streams green.

I have started fishing the Lackawanna River in earnest this year and it is mostly "green" and has one "orange" section upstream from where I fish.

You'll note they don't color the river with both colors. When you turn the orange stocked section off, it leaves a gap in the "green" river.

I have been fishing the Class A green section for the last few weeks, downstream of the stocked section. I think they mean to keep it simple in these cases. Stay out of the orange section from March 1st until opening day!

http://pfbc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=65a89f6592234019bdc5f095eaf5c6ac

 

[mav1958]

Found this at the very bottom of the Commonwealth Inland Waters regulation page.


"NOTE: It is legal to fish for trout in Class A trout streams year-round, with no harvest beginning the day after Labor Day through the opening day of trout season the following year. The exception is those stream sections designated as both Class A Wild Trout Streams and Stocked Trout Waters. These stream sections are closed to fishing from March 1 until 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season."

That's why I hate looking at documents on a computer. The whole page isn't visible on the screen and if I don't scroll all the way down I miss things.

 

[Swattie87]

Good catch mav.