Question (Mike ?) Regarding Young Women's Creek

[Chaz]

Mike wrote:
Take a look at the channel configurations on a number of NC streams in their lower ends. Erosion upstream has not been their friends (rubble and gravel deposition) and the lower ends are wide and shallow under lower flows. Despite perhaps better shade now than in the past, shallow water with poorly defined thalwegs heats up. It is true for the lower end of Cross Fork. The channel change is also true for lower Hammersley, although I don't know whether it heats up as much as Cross Fork. As for the lower end of YW, I could not say, but I had seen substantial erosion in the special reg area about ten yrs ago during a survey. By the way, that special reg area's population did not impress me. It was no better than what we find in many streams without special regs that are similar in width and habitat. I remember thinking as we Electrofished that there is nothing extra special here and special regs are probably not adding much. Frankly, I was wondering what had led to this stream being under special regs in the first place. If you don't think what I have said is true, then perhaps you are spending too much time in special reg areas.

History, for as long as I remember it's been under some special regs, that doesn't make it right. It just is.

I question the value of C & R on a stocked stream with the caveat; are the regs meant to boost the population of wild trout? And if so what's the goal? You can't boost a wild trout population with stocked fish, it must be wild fish, they have the best genetics.
Krayfish, it is a wild trout stream that gets stocked, it is not a marginal stream. Nature has dealt it some blows but it always comes back. We've identified 2 changes that may be impacting the populations. Now the question is who's up to the challenge to fix them? And How?

 

[outsider]

YWC is one of the oldest special regs areas in PA. And Mike, to answer your question/comment regarding why it was ever placed under special regs: IMHO it was special way back when.

 

[troutbert]

Mike wrote:
Take a look at the channel configurations on a number of NC streams in their lower ends. Erosion upstream has not been their friends (rubble and gravel deposition) and the lower ends are wide and shallow under lower flows. Despite perhaps better shade now than in the past, shallow water with poorly defined thalwegs heats up. It is true for the lower end of Cross Fork. The channel change is also true for lower Hammersley, although I don't know whether it heats up as much as Cross Fork. As for the lower end of YW, I could not say, but I had seen substantial erosion in the special reg area about ten yrs ago during a survey.

If the channel configurations, erosion, etc. have really gotten worse in these 3 streams, and possibly in NCPA streams in general, then that raises the question of the cause.

In these streams' watersheds there has been very little development from the early 1970s up til now. The watersheds are mostly forested.

What changes might have occurred that would cause major deterioration to the physical structure of these streams?

 

[RyanR]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
Because his boss has no influence one him what's so ever :roll:

Outsider,

I'm confused, you asked a simple question as to why we thought the rainbows vs browns in YWC was different. You never included any of those observations and it sounds to me like you made up your mind long before you ever asked that question.

That's not really his boss though. Do you know the AFM in that region to know his mindset on this issue regarding stocking on streams like YWC?

I believe the temperature issue is a very real one and wild brook trout are the most susceptible to rising stream temperatures. Wild browns and rainbows are more tolerant. So it really doesn't take much for them to start supplanting the wild brook trout. And each year they gain a larger foothold while the brookie loses ground. I suspect that the more aggressive and more temperature tolerant wild brown trout actually began supplanting the brook trout before it was really even noticeable to anglers. Then add in the addition of stocked trout again and it gets even tougher for the brook trout on much of the stream.

 

[outsider]

troutbert wrote:

Mike wrote:
Take a look at the channel configurations on a number of NC streams in their lower ends. Erosion upstream has not been their friends (rubble and gravel deposition) and the lower ends are wide and shallow under lower flows. Despite perhaps better shade now than in the past, shallow water with poorly defined thalwegs heats up. It is true for the lower end of Cross Fork. The channel change is also true for lower Hammersley, although I don't know whether it heats up as much as Cross Fork. As for the lower end of YW, I could not say, but I had seen substantial erosion in the special reg area about ten yrs ago during a survey.

If the channel configurations, erosion, etc. have really gotten worse in these 3 streams, and possibly in NCPA streams in general, then that raises the question of the cause.

In these streams' watersheds there has been very little development from the early 1970s up til now. The watersheds are mostly forested.

What changes might have occurred that would cause major deterioration to the physical structure of these streams?

troutbert,

I won't attempt to answer in Mike's behalf, but I believe the answer is floods. Take a look at the topography in that area: Steep mountains, narrow valleys, and a thin layer of topsoil to absorb precipitation. I can show you an area where Cross Fork Creek was in the 70's and where it is today. 50 yards apart. Those streams are dynamic in configuration. Pools fill in with rocks etc. from upstream. And a large uprooted tree finds it's way downstream, changing it's landing place. And runoff from manmade structures, primarily roads, which channel mud into the streams.

 

[Mike]

Outsider said what I would have said, although I would have added the cumulative effects of floods, especially those in rapid succession and localized ones that occur when a band of thunderstorms seemingly stalls or slows down over a given area. We occasionally see such localized, damaging events along the Blue Mtn in eastern Pa, and they tear up the free stoners in largely undeveloped watersheds.

 

[k-bob]

mike1: "look at the channel configurations on a number of NC streams in their lower ends. Erosion upstream has not been their friends (rubble and gravel deposition)..."

mike2: "cumulative effects of floods, especially those in rapid succession and localized ones that occur when a band of thunderstorms seemingly stalls or slows down..."

Thanks mike! Stalled thunderstorms can be crazy. This tiny watershed in Luzerne got 5+ inches of rain over 90 minutes in a stalled storm several years ago... (would never happen, but that's a rain rate of 80 inches per day). Ripped out the banks including a street along a stream, exposing a 100 year old water main. In the picture of the exposed water main/slide 16, you can see what appears to be accumulated rubble under a road bridge:

http://www.nacdnet.org/dmdocuments/UCWebinar-Disaster-Response-Luzerne-CD-PA-Dec2013.pdf

 

[Chaz]

The floods that really changed things were the Agnus floods and the Jan. '96 flood. They were big enough to widen the stream to a point where they'd not recover from the widening that occurred without intervention. Yes the populations of fish recover, but the habitat doesn't recover unless extreme measures are taken. Not doubt there were other significant floods during that time, particularly in the 2000's.

 

[salvelinus]

Didn't the specials regs area used to be on the Left Branch years ago? Why was it moved? It seems to me the regs area would have better success back on the Left Branch. Plus the land is all public, I believe.

 

[krayfish]

Bob,

I remember that storm. We were fishing up in Hancock and were watching the evening news from Scranton and they had the footage of the flash flooding. That was pretty amazing damage.

Any of the freestones in steep areas have seriously changed due to flooding over the last 10-20 years.

Look at flows on the Beaverkill for the 2003 - 2009 time frame. The spring flows average 700-900 cfs. I believe there were 3 years in a row where the peak flow was 42,000 - 50,000+. The freakish flows did result in property damage, death and severe changes to the landscape. If you look at some of the sections of the Beaverkill, the plant life and all topsoil is scoured away and extends 50-100' back from the actual streambed. This widened / shallowed some sections causing them to warm faster than they normally do in early summer. The damage was so extensive, I don't see how man made improvements could ever restore the topsoil that was lost. Mother nature will slowly repair it I hope.

These "flood of the century" events have become quite frequent over the last 10 years. Hopefully patterns change and things return to a more "normal" weather pattern.

 

[k-bob]

krayfish right have been some big floods in areas that cant contain them. not that far away from the coal creek one, up in SGL57, little Stony Creek ripped a wide flood plain... this was during the crazy rain event in the Mehoopany (photo below by jeff Mitchell of the excellent Endless Mountains hiking books)

this was just a little stream:

http://endlessmountains.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dsc01774.jpg

 

[Mike]

Very interesting references, k-bob. thanks for the links.

 

[outsider]

A slight correction Chaz, it was Hurricane Agnes (not Angus) in June 1972. Ran straight up the Chesapeake Bay into PA. Very devastating in MD and PA. It literally wiped out the grass beds in the Susquehanna flats in the upper bay and the wonderful bass fishery there.

 

[outsider]

Good post Krayfish, I do recall the devastating floods in the Beaverkill River. Was fortunate to fish it before the damage was done. Hope it rebounds. A good example of what can happen when circumstance prevails.

 

[Chaz]

outsider wrote:
A slight correction Chaz, it was Hurricane Agnes (not Angus) in June 1972. Ran straight up the Chesapeake Bay into PA. Very devastating in MD and PA. It literally wiped out the grass beds in the Susquehanna flats in the upper bay and the wonderful bass fishery there.

I failed spelling, ha ha!
There were floods in NEPA about 4 times over an 18 month period I think in 06 & 07, is that what we're talking about?

 

[k-bob]

interesting "before and after flood repair" images of coal creek in NEPA below... this is damage at the lower levels of tiny steep coal creek after a stalled storm... in the first set of images at upper left, the stream bed was widened and raised by accumulated rock and rubble during flood. in restoration, the stream bed had to be lowered for clearance back under the culvert:

http://www.senatoryudichak.com/CoalCreek

 

[outsider]

My apology Chaz. I thought you were referring to Agnes in 72. Perhaps your storm name is correct.

 

[krayfish]

Outsider, if you fished there years ago, have you been back since the 06 & 07 floods? If you look at the secion between Hendricksons pool and Carins pool, that area was scraped clean by the flooding. Continue past the red rose and the left turn was closed for 2+ years since the river took massive sections of the bank. Some sections down further looked like a lunarscape while others fared much better. You ever doubt the power of water just check out a high gradient freestoner in a steep valley after a flood. Campers 20' up in a tree wrapped around with the steel frame bent like a pretzel.

The port easy changes ever year due to ice jams and spring run off. Islands relocated, new pools 10' where you were only knee deep 10 months ago. It's wild.

 

[outsider]

krayfish,

I haven't fished the Beaverkill in decades. Just could not go back after my mentor/fishing partner died.

 

[troutbert]

krayfish wrote:

The port easy changes ever year due to ice jams and spring run off. Islands relocated, new pools 10' where you were only knee deep 10 months ago. It's wild.

What does "port easy" refer to?