PFBC Meeting regarding proposed fee increases - Friday June 10 2022

[tomgamber]

That "group" is called most people. It's really not that hard to understand.

 

[silverfox]

That "group" is called most people. It's really not that hard to understand.

So random people are calling their representatives and saying; "you better not allow PFBC to reduce trout stocking by 1 fish or I won't vote for you in the next election".

If I call my representative and ask for an accounting of people who've called and demanded that stocking remain at current levels in perpetuity they'll say it was hundreds of constituents? So people are just getting the idea to reach out to their representative on this esoteric issue with no prompting and preemptively demanding that they ensure stocking levels remain the same? I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

 

[troutbert]

THis h

If you have the name of this group that has outplayed TU I'd love to know it so I can speak with them and maybe get some pointers.

It is not one group. It is the sportsmen clubs, especially those with coop hatcheries.

You could contact some of those groups and offer to do a presentation on native brook trout at their meetings.

There are many of these groups. Here are just a few suggestions to start with:

Western Clinton Sportsmen and Mosquito Creek Sportsmen.

Do you know the significance of these 2 groups?

 

[FarmerDave]

I'm late to this party, and you guys have a heck of a discussion going on about several different things. I started generating a response, but it got way too long. So, I deleted it and will just make a couple comments, mostly regarding brook trout.

First, I don't care if license fees go up. But I am sure there are opportunities to cut expenses, especially when it comes to stocking.

I've been against stocking over native brookies as long as I can remember. I've often said they should just open the hatcheries to fishing. Think if the money they'd save on the great white fleet. They could even rent lawn chairs. Yea, I'm being sarcastic, but not entirely. It would certainly alleviate some of the opening day fiasco.

And now for the big white elephant that many are avoiding. I don't give the private clubs as much credit as some of you do. Yea, they are part of the problem. but lets talk about the white elephant in the room. It seems to me that many members of this choir, including TU favor brown trout over brookies. This isn't going to shift in favor of the natives as long as our loudest voices are not unified, and seem to care more for the invasives.

 

[troutbert]

This shows locations of cooperative hatcheries in PA:

ArcGIS Web Application

pfbc.maps.arcgis.com

 

[Fish Sticks]

THis h


It is not one group. It is the sportsmen clubs, especially those with coop hatcheries.

You could contact some of those groups and offer to do a presentation on native brook trout at their meetings.

There are many of these groups. Here are just a few suggestions to start with:

Western Clinton Sportsmen and Mosquito Creek Sportsmen.

Do you know the significance of these 2 groups?

What you described with doing presentations to sportsman’s groups about native brook trout we have been doing for a while. I actually did one of these talks with a group in a watershed i’m restoring this week.

 

[troutbert]

What you described with doing presentations to sportsman’s groups about native brook trout we have been doing for a while. I actually did one of these talks with a group in a watershed i’m restoring this week.

That's good. What groups did you speak to?

Were they groups with coop hatcheries who are stocking over native brook trout?

What responses did you get to your presentations?

 

[Fish Sticks]

That's good. What groups did you speak to?

Were they groups with coop hatcheries who are stocking over native brook trout?

What responses did you get to your presentations?

People in NGO’s I volunteer with or Myself have spoken to multiple groups in schuyllkill county and I have spoken to a few different groups in lebanon county/schuyllkill county too. None associated with co-ops but id like to do that and its on my ever expanding to do list. The responses you get are friendly and they thank you for coming out but its not questions like “where could we relocate these fish” or “do you think we could do something differently” ect.

 

[silverfox]

THis h


It is not one group. It is the sportsmen clubs, especially those with coop hatcheries.

You could contact some of those groups and offer to do a presentation on native brook trout at their meetings.

There are many of these groups. Here are just a few suggestions to start with:

Western Clinton Sportsmen and Mosquito Creek Sportsmen.

Do you know the significance of these 2 groups?

A few steps ahead of you here. Yes. As I've said before though, I (and others) can present and talk to these people all we want. If the state is giving them the green light to stock over brook trout, they're going to continue to stock over brook trout regardless of how many educational seminars they see/hear or how many facts about the negative impact are presented. That doesn't mean I/we will stop trying.

Again, education from the right source is important here. NGO's can be seen as biased or self-serving. The state is the only agency with the power to change minds and what they publish, write, and promote on social media will undermine anything determined and organized groups of well-intentioned private citizens do.

 

[Tom1980]

I'm late to this party, and you guys have a heck of a discussion going on about several different things. I started generating a response, but it got way too long. So, I deleted it and will just make a couple comments, mostly regarding brook trout.

First, I don't care if license fees go up. But I am sure there are opportunities to cut expenses, especially when it comes to stocking.

I've been against stocking over native brookies as long as I can remember. I've often said they should just open the hatcheries to fishing. Think if the money they'd save on the great white fleet. They could even rent lawn chairs. Yea, I'm being sarcastic, but not entirely. It would certainly alleviate some of the opening day fiasco.

And now for the big white elephant that many are avoiding. I don't give the private clubs as much credit as some of you do. Yea, they are part of the problem. but lets talk about the white elephant in the room. It seems to me that many members of this choir, including TU favor brown trout over brookies. This isn't going to shift in favor of the natives as long as our loudest voices are not unified, and seem to care more for the invasives.

There it is. You hit it right on the head.

The stumbling block

 

[Fish Sticks]

There it is. You hit it right on the head.

The stumbling block

Yea Tom and Farmer Dave are right about many people favoring invasive trout species over native brook trout and that being a huge hinderance in conservation to uniting people around this issue of stocking invasive species and managing for brook trout.

To be clear lol i’m not saying it should be illegal to like brown trout or fish for them. I love brown trout actually…just in their native range. I fish for them outside their native range of course and it can be very fun we all have done it and will continue to do so with enjoyment. They are not going anywhere in PA our current technology cannot eradicate them even in single medium to large sized waterways effectively.

I can even admire their colors and beauty outside their native range but with knowledge they shouldn’t be there, strongly wishing that they weren’t there, and rooting for/supporting efforts to restore brown trout in their native range. People fishing for them and enjoying that experience isn’t a problem of it stops at that.

The stumbling block Tom and farmer dave are talking about is when someone starts taking their fishing preferences or feelings about invasive trout and entering into the realm of conservation, either in action or through discussion, and falsely devaluing native brook trout’s conservation value, protecting, promoting, or propagating/restoring for brown trout/rainbow trout.

The problem when someone does this under the false pretense of conservation is there is no such thing as conservation of an invasive species by definition of the word conservation. Protecting things that are taking over and occupying near 100% of habitat they potentially could worldwide(macintosh et al 2011) isn’t conservation its aiding invasion.

Now alot of the people who are part of the “stumbling block” are really nice well intentioned folks trying to do the right thing. They may not even know what a native species is, the beneifts of co evolution/ stable functioning ecosystems. They may know these benefits and be little more sophisticated but have just believed the false notions/myths that invasive trout are not harmful propagated by so many. They are a stumbling block but their not trying to be one and would do the right thing with some education. These are the people we need to reach out to and say I really like that you got involved with cleaning up your local waterway, fixing water quality, and making the physical stream better and then educate on what we can do for the actual fish. These are good people, we want them, we need them.

We have tried to reach those people through speaking engagements, podcast/media interviews, op eds, events/grass roots in person public outreach, signage , and other means. This subgroup of people trying to do conservation just got steered wrong by the other group of people in the stumbling block who know better and still talk about wild invasive trout like their the last white rhinos despite world domination and destroying/harming populations from everything from native Himalayan snow trout, natove eels, native crayfish, native new zealand galaxids, cutthroats, brook trout, native Argentinian Perca, and many many many many more.

This latter group of people in the stumbling block is a very extreme minority but a dangerous one. They know better they don’t care. They have infiltrated/perverted conservation and refuse to aknowledge that their agendas are fishing driven and have no root in anything mistakable for conservation. Again I have no right to tell them how they should think and if they would just admit its because of what they like to fish for id say agree to disagree atleast your being honest. But thats not happening and whats dangerous is if we could all as reasonable people find even just a tiny iency weency little slice if water in this 86k stream mile state(even one) where we can manage for native brook and harvest/or remove invasive trout, these people aggressively reject under the false pretenses of conservation and try to devalue what your trying to do actual conservation with. These are the people that if we really care about native brook trout and conservation, much like a malignant tumor, we need to put a spotlight on what their doing. And get them to stop poisoning the conservation movement for native speices and return them to fishing(a group we are in too and thats ok being in fishing is awesome, fun, and I take great pride in being an angler! Its just different than conservation).

I think fear of loss of fishing experience is a big driver for these folks and its ironic because we can’t do removal in the large storied streams of brown trout history(its not possible with water that large with no barriers at this point) and its more likley that even as managment for brook trout/removal of invasive trout becomes more accepted occurs in a few targeted places in our state, brown trout will continue to expand and take over more brook trout streams as things warm up.

PA fish and boat was actually considering allowing harvest of those hatchery offspring wild rainbows in Big spring and the stumbling block faction came in Guns a’ Blazing. Guess one spring creek in the whole state of Pennsylvannia managed for just our state fish of greatest conservation need was just too much to bare for those folks who screwed up conservation because of their fishing preferences. THATS what i want to daylight THATS whats NOT acceptable.

 

[FarmerDave]

Fish Sticks, that is definitely part of what I meant, maybe even most. We both know that there is more to it which is why I gave up in an earlier attempt. There are a few other tangents I could go off on as well, like why one "class" system covering 46055, square miles? Why use the same criteria for NWPA where the geology sucks and favors brook trout, as you do in the limestone region of central PA that favors browns? This should be more regional IMO. Oh wait, even though it's one of the best in the area, it's still not class A and has road access, so let's stock the crap out of it.

Don't get me started.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Fish Sticks, that is definitely part of what I meant, maybe even most. We both know that there is more to it which is why I gave up in an earlier attempt. There are a few other tangents I could go off on as well, like why one "class" system covering 46055, square miles? Why use the same criteria for NWPA where the geology sucks and favors brook trout, as you do in the limestone region of central PA that favors browns? This should be more regional IMO. Oh wait, even though it's one of the best in the area, it's still not class A and has road access, so let's stock the crap out of it.

Don't get me started.

Yea the class system is irrelevant for management of the species long term. Density can be more of a statement about the stream sometimes rather than the priority of the native brook trout for conservation genetics wise. If you have a small population of native brook trout rated “Class C” by PAFB that are eeking out an existence in a stream that has higher temps, known invasive species, siltation problems or any stressor ect. there may be valuable genetic adaptations or genes/gene complexes that are a big part of the reason those fish are there. This concept is in the literature if i am remembering correctly is called “rear edge” native brook trout to denote that these fish are on the fringe as far as where impairments are really damaging populations(not strongholds) and this selection in areas with good connectivity can actually cause natural selection for some highly valuable genes that can help the species if they don’t blink out and the genes stay on the landscape and are not extirpated.

 

[silverfox]

I'm late to this party, and you guys have a heck of a discussion going on about several different things. I started generating a response, but it got way too long. So, I deleted it and will just make a couple comments, mostly regarding brook trout.

First, I don't care if license fees go up. But I am sure there are opportunities to cut expenses, especially when it comes to stocking.

I've been against stocking over native brookies as long as I can remember. I've often said they should just open the hatcheries to fishing. Think if the money they'd save on the great white fleet. They could even rent lawn chairs. Yea, I'm being sarcastic, but not entirely. It would certainly alleviate some of the opening day fiasco.

And now for the big white elephant that many are avoiding. I don't give the private clubs as much credit as some of you do. Yea, they are part of the problem. but lets talk about the white elephant in the room. It seems to me that many members of this choir, including TU favor brown trout over brookies. This isn't going to shift in favor of the natives as long as our loudest voices are not unified, and seem to care more for the invasives.

I just got back from fishing Bob's creek in Bedford County. Fished from 3pm to 6:30. I normally don't count fish, but I did this time because I had a feeling I knew how it would go. I caught 52 trout. 1 brook trout and 51 brown trout. I remember 20 some years ago it would've been 50 brook trout to 1 brown trout.

Most of the brown trout were 3 to 4 inches or less. Like this.

I caught 3 stocked brown trout. This one looks wild to me but has signs of hatchery traits. The squiggly lines and choppy red/orange spots.

As opposed to these pure strain german browns straight off the boat that migrated from Bellefonte in the late 1800s.

Here's probably the last brook trout I'll ever catch out of this stream. I started fishing here in about 1993. I give the brook trout another 10 to 15 years and they'll be extirpated here.

Something occurred to me today. We have signs designating stocked water but we don't have signs at the start of class a water. I fished from the very end of the stocked water up into the class a water. It would be nice if they notified anglers of the rules and regulations for wild trout in class a streams the same way we educate anglers about stocked trout. I wonder how many anglers are aware of the regulations on Class A waters in the extended season or if people even know this is the start of the class a section? If you park here you'd think from the sign that you're walking into stocked trout water.

Happy fathers day!

 

[Fish Sticks]

Bobs creek flowing off blue knob i think thats highest point of elevation in pa? Should be pretty darn cold, and i think its pretty well forested right? Thats one of those streams where id be shocked if those browns weren’t displacing a population of brookies that otherwise could have continued to thrive there. And they stock it of course which is utterly moronic. Wonder if that one brook trout you caught has contains any genes or genetic adaptations worth protecting that allowed him to be one if the last ones standing of his disappeared peer lineages. Its on the freakin front lines and still eeking out a living but instead of controlling/managing against invasive species there, PAFB going to let potentially very valuable genes slip away into extirpation for the all mighty stocked brown trout and a class A pop of average 3-5” invasive browns.

 

[silverfox]

Yea Tom and Farmer Dave are right about many people favoring invasive trout species over native brook trout and that being a huge hinderance in conservation to uniting people around this issue of stocking invasive species and managing for brook trout.

To be clear lol i’m not saying it should be illegal to like brown trout or fish for them. I love brown trout actually…just in their native range. I fish for them outside their native range of course and it can be very fun we all have done it and will continue to do so with enjoyment. They are not going anywhere in PA our current technology cannot eradicate them even in single medium to large sized waterways effectively.

I can even admire their colors and beauty outside their native range but with knowledge they shouldn’t be there, strongly wishing that they weren’t there, and rooting for/supporting efforts to restore brown trout in their native range. People fishing for them and enjoying that experience isn’t a problem of it stops at that.

The stumbling block Tom and farmer dave are talking about is when someone starts taking their fishing preferences or feelings about invasive trout and entering into the realm of conservation, either in action or through discussion, and falsely devaluing native brook trout’s conservation value, protecting, promoting, or propagating/restoring for brown trout/rainbow trout.

The problem when someone does this under the false pretense of conservation is there is no such thing as conservation of an invasive species by definition of the word conservation. Protecting things that are taking over and occupying near 100% of habitat they potentially could worldwide(macintosh et al 2011) isn’t conservation its aiding invasion.

Now alot of the people who are part of the “stumbling block” are really nice well intentioned folks trying to do the right thing. They may not even know what a native species is, the beneifts of co evolution/ stable functioning ecosystems. They may know these benefits and be little more sophisticated but have just believed the false notions/myths that invasive trout are not harmful propagated by so many. They are a stumbling block but their not trying to be one and would do the right thing with some education. These are the people we need to reach out to and say I really like that you got involved with cleaning up your local waterway, fixing water quality, and making the physical stream better and then educate on what we can do for the actual fish. These are good people, we want them, we need them.

We have tried to reach those people through speaking engagements, podcast/media interviews, op eds, events/grass roots in person public outreach, signage , and other means. This subgroup of people trying to do conservation just got steered wrong by the other group of people in the stumbling block who know better and still talk about wild invasive trout like their the last white rhinos despite world domination and destroying/harming populations from everything from native Himalayan snow trout, natove eels, native crayfish, native new zealand galaxids, cutthroats, brook trout, native Argentinian Perca, and many many many many more.

This latter group of people in the stumbling block is a very extreme minority but a dangerous one. They know better they don’t care. They have infiltrated/perverted conservation and refuse to aknowledge that their agendas are fishing driven and have no root in anything mistakable for conservation. Again I have no right to tell them how they should think and if they would just admit its because of what they like to fish for id say agree to disagree atleast your being honest. But thats not happening and whats dangerous is if we could all as reasonable people find even just a tiny iency weency little slice if water in this 86k stream mile state(even one) where we can manage for native brook and harvest/or remove invasive trout, these people aggressively reject under the false pretenses of conservation and try to devalue what your trying to do actual conservation with. These are the people that if we really care about native brook trout and conservation, much like a malignant tumor, we need to put a spotlight on what their doing. And get them to stop poisoning the conservation movement for native speices and return them to fishing(a group we are in too and thats ok being in fishing is awesome, fun, and I take great pride in being an angler! Its just different than conservation).

I think fear of loss of fishing experience is a big driver for these folks and its ironic because we can’t do removal in the large storied streams of brown trout history(its not possible with water that large with no barriers at this point) and its more likley that even as managment for brook trout/removal of invasive trout becomes more accepted occurs in a few targeted places in our state, brown trout will continue to expand and take over more brook trout streams as things warm up.

PA fish and boat was actually considering allowing harvest of those hatchery offspring wild rainbows in Big spring and the stumbling block faction came in Guns a’ Blazing. Guess one spring creek in the whole state of Pennsylvannia managed for just our state fish of greatest conservation need was just too much to bare for those folks who screwed up conservation because of their fishing preferences. THATS what i want to daylight THATS whats NOT acceptable.

If we base what we save on the biggest following of fishermen then brook trout are doomed for sure. This isn’t a popularity contest.

 

[silverfox]

Bobs creek flowing off blue knob i think thats highest point of elevation in pa? Should be pretty darn cold, and i think its pretty well forested right? Thats one of those streams where id be shocked if those browns weren’t displacing a population of brookies that otherwise could have continued to thrive there. And they stock it of course which is utterly moronic. Wonder if that one brook trout you caught has contains any genes or genetic adaptations worth protecting that allowed him to be one if the last ones standing of his disappeared peer lineages. Its on the freakin front lines and still eeking out a living but instead of controlling/managing against invasive species there, PAFB going to let potentially very valuable genes slip away into extirpation for the all mighty stocked brown trout and a class A pop of average 3-5” invasive browns.

It was 57.8 where I fished today. 58.7 in Pavia.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It was 57.8 where I fished today. 58.7 in Pavia.

Is that the stream where the browns got all the help from people ripping out natural LWD and altering the natural channel form in favor of straight deep channel, jack dams, lunker bunkers to make deep “holes”? I seem to remember something about an undisturbed fully forested stream that was ruined by a log and iron re-bar temple to wild invasive browns built out there that proceeded the change? Obviously not the only factor(it’s actively stocked for christ sake). Am i thinking of the right stream? I could be wrong and thinking of another stream near by.

 

[silverfox]

Is that the stream where the browns got all the help from people ripping out natural LWD and altering the natural channel form in favor of straight deep channel, jack dams, lunker bunkers to make deep “holes”? I seem to remember something about an undisturbed fully forested stream that was ruined by a log and iron re-bar temple to wild invasive browns built out there that proceeded the change? Obviously not the only factor(it’s actively stocked for christ sake). Am i thinking of the right stream? I could be wrong and thinking of another stream near by.

Yep. Lots of old (20-30 years old) jack dams that made deep pool habitat. Chainsawed natural log jams out and built lunker bunkers. State stocks 5lb browns right up to the class a line. Sportsman club stocks it to death. Someone was stocking brook trout there for a while. All on state forest land. I’m sure DCNR is thrilled.

 

[FarmerDave]

If we base what we save on the biggest following of fishermen then brook trout are doomed for sure. This isn’t a popularity contest.

likely true, but excuse me for not liking it. ;-)