Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

[Swattie87]

I understand. Again, other states don't seem to have this problem though. 🤷‍♂️

Kettle would be the closest thing to what we're looking for. However, I'd say that browns (wild and stocked) and stocked rainbows make up a good portion of the fish you encounter until you get well up into the watershed.

It probably has something to do with this: https://fbweb.pa.gov/stocking/TroutStocking_ATW_GIS_RFP.aspx?RFP_WaterID=3351

I forget the number. Fishsticks might remember off the top of his head, but we calculated all the trout stocked in Kettle in 2020 between the PFBC and Co-Ops, and it was either 40,000 or 60,000 stocked trout. Probably a good chance of running into those while fishing our best brook trout stream.

Yeah. It’s definitely a mixed bag in Kettle. From the FFO and up though, I’d say the most common species of fish I catch are wild Brookies. Most of the other places I’m thinking of similar to Kettle in size have the same issues…Portions of them are stocked, and most have at least some presence of wild Browns. But, when you go to them, you can regularly expect to catch wild Brook Trout on a stream that doesn’t require bow and arrow casting a 6’6 rod all day.

 

[Swattie87]

I had that happen to me on Jeans one early morning a number of years ago. I was already fishing when these two guys show up at the trail/stream crossing near the bottom. They saw me already fishing, but they proceeded to quickly hike upstream of me. I was pissed! But, I just turned around and left, in a not very good mood. Thank God that's a rarity.

Yeah, smart move in just punting and moving on. It hasn’t happened to me in a while, but I struggle not to say something. “You know I wouldn’t have done what you just did to me, to you.” Doesn’t get you anywhere good though. Anyone considerate and who knows what they’re doing, wouldn’t have done that in the first place.

I find it happens most often on warm, nice, early Spring days, before the STW opener, and guys wanna get out but are limited to unstocked streams and/or special regs areas. Saw 4 separate guys fishing Segloch a couple March’s ago on a nice warm Saturday. (I didn’t even get out of the car that day.)

Edit: Again, the fish are fine. A hole or run gets fished once, maybe a fish gets caught, or not, and then the hole is spooked for the rest of the day, and no more fish get caught from it from the other anglers. It’s not the fish that can’t take the pressure, it’s me as the angler!

 

[silverfox]

My favorite brook trout fishing experience is when you hike several miles and are having a blast catching gemmies and you hook something big in a pool only to realize when you get to the surface that it's a 16-inch stocked rainbow. That exact thing happened to me on Kettle this year. Nothing exemplifies brook trout fishing in Pennsylvania like your biggest fish of the day being anything other than a brook trout.

Edit> Oh, and because it's C&R for all species there, you aren't legally allowed to harvest said 16-inch rainbow.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

My favorite brook trout fishing experience is when you hike several miles and are having a blast catching gemmies and you hook something big in a pool only to realize when you get to the surface that it's a 16-inch stocked rainbow. That exact thing happened to me on Kettle this year. Nothing exemplifies brook trout fishing in Pennsylvania like your biggest fish of the day being anything other than a brook trout.

Edit> Oh, and because it's C&R for all species there, you aren't legally allowed to harvest said 16-inch rainbow.

They can always have accidental gill bleeding.
It's a hell of a thing and always a shame 🤷

 

[silverfox]

They can always have accidental gill bleeding.
It's a hell of a thing and always a shame 🤷

It would be nice if PFBC just allowed the harvest of all non-native fish in the FFO section. I don't know that it would really have a significant impact, but it's a minor step. One that seems unlikely, unfortunately. it seems crazy to me to stock fish over wild brook trout and then not allow people to harvest them.

 

[Swattie87]

It would be nice if PFBC just allowed the harvest of all non-native fish in the FFO section. I don't know that it would really have a significant impact, but it's a minor step. One that seems unlikely, unfortunately. it seems crazy to me to stock fish over wild brook trout and then not allow people to harvest them.

Or, in the case of Kettle, if the intent is to have a stocked C&R FFO section, move it downstream somewhere below Cross Fork and above the lake to where the wild Brookies have petered out. Not ideal, but better than where the current FFO is located.

No stocking above Ole Bull, in Kettle, or Little Kettle, is clearly the right thing to do from a management perspective. Good luck with that though.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea we counted 60 thousand fish stocked in the kettle watershed, comission and co-op(not counting private).

I think the larger habitat in kettle where cross fork creek and hammersly come out and down to and through the lake to the alvin bush dam would add a lot of diversity to their life history/survival strategies. I am assuming that lake is deep enough to be two story lake temperature wise? I don’t know.

If you were going to put conservation or the fish over the fishing in one single significant sized watershed in this state that would be the place to do it.

Let the consumptive angler go nuts on the invasive trout in the brook trout management area, like silver fox said it won’t do alot but it prob wont hurt

 

[troutbert]

Here's an example of a brook trout stream stocked by a coop hatchery, but not by the PFBC. At least it was still being stocked about 10 years ago, when a buddy and I fished it.

N 41.34776 W 78.80545

You can copy and paste those coordinates into Google Maps or Acmemapper etc.

This is a small stream flowing through forested State Gamelands. It has a native brook trout population, but no brown trout.

We found hatchery trout from near the mouth up to about 100 yards above the forest road seen on the map.

 

[silverfox]

Here's an example of a brook trout stream stocked by a coop hatchery, but not by the PFBC. At least it was still being stocked about 10 years ago, when a buddy and I fished it.

N 41.34776 W 78.80545

You can copy and paste those coordinates into Google Maps or Acmemapper etc.

This is a small stream flowing through forested State Gamelands. It has a native brook trout population, but no brown trout.

We found hatchery trout from near the mouth up to about 100 yards above the forest road seen on the map.

I don't recall the last one I found. I saw a "fishing club" promoting stocking on a Facebook page. They listed a bunch of streams they were stocking. I think it was Potter County. I looked at the stream list, and one or two of them weren't on the stocking list. I asked about it, and they said that PFBC told them it was ok to stock those streams. They were both native brook trout streams.

 

[Swattie87]

Red Run (trib to Mix Run), Elk County, is not listed as stocked on the PFBC website, but is definitely club or co-op stocked. The stocked fish (Browns and Rainbows) are small, barely of legal size, and much smaller and prettier than PFBC fish, but are still clearly not wild fish.

Red Run is listed as a Class A mix Brook/Brown wild stream, though the vast majority of the wild, non-stocked fish, I’ve caught have been Brookies. Perhaps all Brookies even. I recall catching wild Browns on Mix, but not on Red. Though I’m sure there is at least a token wild Brown population in Red.

I have no clue how this is allowed to happen on a Class A stream. At first I thought maybe they were all stockers from lower on Mix running up, but there were tons of them, and the handful of stocked fish I caught on Mix, among mostly wild fish, were larger and the more typical classic ugly PFBC fish. And this was mid May, with water temps still in the 50’s. Fish would not have been running upstream for cooler water yet.

Edit: Found some photos…There’s just something not quite right about the Brown and Bow. They’re good looking fish, but something is off on both of them. That coupled with the inordinate amount (like 20 of them) of ones that looked almost exactly like those I caught that day, had me put together the puzzle that someone is putting fish in there. FWIW all the Brookies I caught appeared to be wild. But they were outnumbered by the invaders in terms of the total numbers caught.

Also, I found this interesting…I ran into two other guys fishing Red that day with live bait, and saw no one else on Mix. I found this odd given that it was mid-May, and Mix is PFBC stocked and is 2 or 3 times bigger than Red. Unless, there’s some in the know about what’s being put into Red.

I’d love to know if the PFBC is aware of this, and if so, who is doing the stocking and why they were granted permission for it to happen.

There, you guys yanked a stream name out of me!

 

[troutbert]

I don't recall the last one I found. I saw a "fishing club" promoting stocking on a Facebook page. They listed a bunch of streams they were stocking. I think it was Potter County. I looked at the stream list, and one or two of them weren't on the stocking list. I asked about it, and they said that PFBC told them it was ok to stock those streams. They were both native brook trout streams.

Yes, this is very common.

You said you looked at the lists of streams stocked by the Coop hatcheries. The numbers of streams on those lists where the Coops are stocking over native brookies is very large.

The Coop hatcheries are required each year to submit those lists of streams they stock to the PFBC for review.

The PFBC does a lot of stocking over native brook trout, so it would be hard for them to tell the Coops that they can't.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Red Run (trib to Mix Run), Elk County, is not listed as stocked on the PFBC website, but is definitely club or co-op stocked. The stocked fish (Browns and Rainbows) are small, barely of legal size, and much smaller and prettier than PFBC fish, but are still clearly not wild fish.

Red Run is listed as a Class A mix Brook/Brown wild stream, though the vast majority of the wild, non-stocked fish, I’ve caught have been Brookies. Perhaps all Brookies even. I recall catching wild Browns on Mix, but not on Red. Though I’m sure there is at least a token wild Brown population in Red.

I have no clue how this is allowed to happen on a Class A stream. At first I thought maybe they were all stockers from lower on Mix running up, but there were tons of them, and the handful of stocked fish I caught on Mix, among mostly wild fish, were larger and the more typical classic ugly PFBC fish. And this was mid May, with water temps still in the 50’s. Fish would not have been running upstream for cooler water yet.

Edit: Found some photos…There’s just something not quite right about the Brown and Bow. They’re good looking fish, but something is off on both of them. That coupled with the inordinate amount (like 20 of them) of ones that looked almost exactly like those I caught that day, had me put together the puzzle that someone is putting fish in there. FWIW all the Brookies I caught appeared to be wild. But they were outnumbered by the invaders in terms of the total numbers caught.

Also, I found this interesting…I ran into two other guys fishing Red that day with live bait, and saw no one else on Mix. I found this odd given that it was mid-May, and Mix is PFBC stocked and is 2 or 3 times bigger than Red. Unless, there’s some in the know about what’s being put into Red.

I’d love to know if the PFBC is aware of this, and if so, who is doing the stocking and why they were granted permission for it to happen.

There, you guys yanked a stream name out of me!

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PA fish and Boat likely has no idea. In fact with the stocking authorization everyones favorite private for profit hatchery tried to use something along the lines of this auth will stop our many customers who stop in after work and gran a couple hundred fish to stock their favorite creek for the weekend.

Its gotten so bad in PA that a lot of this stocking is not even anything organized like a club. I mean there is a lot of that too but it can also just be, and often is, one or a couple of people creating their own little secret fishery where ever they want for the weekend.

 

[Swattie87]

I looked at the co-op listings on the PFBC website. Red Run (Elk County) is not listed anywhere…

 

[troutbert]

Red Run is a Class A stream, so stocking there is prohibited. So the stocking that you encountered is outlaw stocking. That is fairly common.

But the vast majority of stocking of hatchery trout over wild trout is done by the PFBC and the Coop hatcheries, and it is approved stocking, not outlaw stocking.

 

[troutbert]

I looked at the co-op listings on the PFBC website. Red Run (Elk County) is not listed anywhere…

Can you explain? I don't know what you mean.

 

[silverfox]

Red Run (trib to Mix Run), Elk County, is not listed as stocked on the PFBC website, but is definitely club or co-op stocked. The stocked fish (Browns and Rainbows) are small, barely of legal size, and much smaller and prettier than PFBC fish, but are still clearly not wild fish.

Red Run is listed as a Class A mix Brook/Brown wild stream, though the vast majority of the wild, non-stocked fish, I’ve caught have been Brookies. Perhaps all Brookies even. I recall catching wild Browns on Mix, but not on Red. Though I’m sure there is at least a token wild Brown population in Red.

I have no clue how this is allowed to happen on a Class A stream. At first I thought maybe they were all stockers from lower on Mix running up, but there were tons of them, and the handful of stocked fish I caught on Mix, among mostly wild fish, were larger and the more typical classic ugly PFBC fish. And this was mid May, with water temps still in the 50’s. Fish would not have been running upstream for cooler water yet.

Edit: Found some photos…There’s just something not quite right about the Brown and Bow. They’re good looking fish, but something is off on both of them. That coupled with the inordinate amount (like 20 of them) of ones that looked almost exactly like those I caught that day, had me put together the puzzle that someone is putting fish in there. FWIW all the Brookies I caught appeared to be wild. But they were outnumbered by the invaders in terms of the total numbers caught.

Also, I found this interesting…I ran into two other guys fishing Red that day with live bait, and saw no one else on Mix. I found this odd given that it was mid-May, and Mix is PFBC stocked and is 2 or 3 times bigger than Red. Unless, there’s some in the know about what’s being put into Red.

I’d love to know if the PFBC is aware of this, and if so, who is doing the stocking and why they were granted permission for it to happen.

There, you guys yanked a stream name out of me!

View attachment 1641227518View attachment 1641227519View attachment 1641227520

There was an email chain about this a year or so ago. The answer we got from PFBC is that the stocked trout likely migrated up the stream from its receiving stream which is stocked.

 

[Swattie87]

Can you explain? I don't know what you mean.

PFBC Co-Op Stocking List

 

[Swattie87]

There was an email chain about this a year or so ago. The answer we got from PFBC is that the stocked trout likely migrated up the stream from its receiving stream which is stocked.

Don’t buy it for a second. All of the stocked fish in Red were small (6-8”) and were good looking fish. Enough so that I really had to look at them close and why I took pictures of them. I don’t normally take pics of stockers.

The stockers in Mix were your classic 10-12” PFBC fish with no fins. Again, this was mid-May, not late Summer. But even so, I don’t think Mix has major thermal issues that would warrant a mass migration upstream to find cooler water.

 

[silverfox]

Red Run (trib to Mix Run), Elk County, is not listed as stocked on the PFBC website, but is definitely club or co-op stocked. The stocked fish (Browns and Rainbows) are small, barely of legal size, and much smaller and prettier than PFBC fish, but are still clearly not wild fish.

Red Run is listed as a Class A mix Brook/Brown wild stream, though the vast majority of the wild, non-stocked fish, I’ve caught have been Brookies. Perhaps all Brookies even. I recall catching wild Browns on Mix, but not on Red. Though I’m sure there is at least a token wild Brown population in Red.

I have no clue how this is allowed to happen on a Class A stream. At first I thought maybe they were all stockers from lower on Mix running up, but there were tons of them, and the handful of stocked fish I caught on Mix, among mostly wild fish, were larger and the more typical classic ugly PFBC fish. And this was mid May, with water temps still in the 50’s. Fish would not have been running upstream for cooler water yet.

Edit: Found some photos…There’s just something not quite right about the Brown and Bow. They’re good looking fish, but something is off on both of them. That coupled with the inordinate amount (like 20 of them) of ones that looked almost exactly like those I caught that day, had me put together the puzzle that someone is putting fish in there. FWIW all the Brookies I caught appeared to be wild. But they were outnumbered by the invaders in terms of the total numbers caught.

Also, I found this interesting…I ran into two other guys fishing Red that day with live bait, and saw no one else on Mix. I found this odd given that it was mid-May, and Mix is PFBC stocked and is 2 or 3 times bigger than Red. Unless, there’s some in the know about what’s being put into Red.

I’d love to know if the PFBC is aware of this, and if so, who is doing the stocking and why they were granted permission for it to happen.

There, you guys yanked a stream name out of me!

View attachment 1641227518View attachment 1641227519View attachment 1641227520

Also, I agree with your assessment that someone is likely stocking Red Run itself. I'm not buying the immigration story. Your story matches others who have reported significant catches of stocked trout in that stream. This is another issue I'm sure happens all over the place with these rogue stocking operations. I've witnessed and reported it myself. I'm not claiming for certain that's what is happening on Red Run, but I'd bet money a few buckets of fish accidentally end up there.

With no evidence of who put them there, it's fine for PFBC to pass it off as a natural occurrence. Even if PFBC is correct and all those stocked rainbows ended up in Red Run from Mix, that highlights another significant issue. It's not just about whether the stream or section itself is stocked, if that many stocked trout are invading a Class A brook trout stream, then that's a problem. No matter how you slice it, that stream is being mismanaged.

 

[silverfox]

Don’t buy it for a second. All of the stocked fish in Red were small (6-8”) and were good looking fish. Enough so that I really had to look at them close. The stockers in Mix were your classic 10-12” PFBC fish with no fins. Again, this was mid-May, not late Summer.

I agree. I'm just relaying what the AFM told us.