Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

[silverfox]

Don’t buy it for a second. All of the stocked fish in Red were small (6-8”) and were good looking fish. Enough so that I really had to look at them close and why I took pictures of them. I don’t normally take pics of stockers.

The stockers in Mix were your classic 10-12” PFBC fish with no fins. Again, this was mid-May, not late Summer.

I reread the email on this issue. The response was that if anyone has a credible report of stocking on Red Run to report it to PFBC. They didn't imply explicitly that the stocked fish migrated into Red Run from Mix. He just stated that Red Run is a tributary to Mix and that Mix is stocked. I interpreted that to imply that it was likely fish moving rather than stocking.

 

[Swattie87]

I reread the email on this issue. The response was that if anyone has a credible report of stocking on Red Run to report it to PFBC. They didn't imply explicitly that the stocked fish migrated into Red Run from Mix. He just stated that Red Run is a tributary to Mix and that Mix is stocked. I interpreted that to imply that it was likely fish moving rather than stocking.

Got ya. My outing with the stockers was in May of 2021. I fished Mix again this Spring, about the same time in May, but skipped Red this time because all the stockers from last year turned me off to it. I’ll try to fish it again next Spring and see what turns up. The PFBC can come fish it with me if they want. Someone is (or was) putting fish in there. That Bow and Brown don’t look like PFBC fish. And I caught roughly 20 carbon copies of those, more Bows than Browns, but definitely some more small Browns that at first glance looked wild, but a closer look revealed otherwise.

 

[troutbert]

PFBC Co-Op Stocking List

Wow! I never saw that before. I wonder when they first published that. It even has the section numbers!

Thanks Swattie!

 

[Swattie87]

Wow! I never saw that before. I wonder when they first published that.

Yeah, I’m not sure. I was kinda happier not knowing about that list and all the places fish are being allowed to be put in.

 

[caddisflyer]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

 

[jgish92]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

Maine

 

[silverfox]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

Yes. It's worth mentioning that there is an ongoing study in Maryland right now where they're removing brown trout from Big Hunting creek and monitoring the brook trout population's response. So there will be another study shortly that shows the effects.

One of the better papers on this.

(PDF) Long-term population demographics of native brook trout following manipulative reduction of an invader

PDF | Although laboratory studies have provided evidence for negative interactions between brook trout and brown trout, it is unknown how these... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Effects of brown trout removal on brook trout behavior.

Canadian Science Publishing

This doesn't show removal, but they (including a current PFBC AFM) found a correlation between brown rout presence and the probability of brook trout presence. i.e., that the presence of brown trout reduces the likelihood of brook trout being present.

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00028487.2012.734892

Not brook trout, but another native salmonid that was negatively impacted by brown trout.

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/csp2.325

Effectively outlines the effectiveness of mechanical removal of rainbow trout.

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675%281997%29017%3C0054%3AAIBMAO%3E2.3.CO%3B2

Increase in brook trout after removal of rainbow trout.

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659%281983%293%3C72%3ASCOBTC%3E2.0.CO%3B2

 

[silverfox]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

In general, there is a mountain of evidence that nonnative fish suppress brook trout populations or displace brook trout. At this point, I don't think it's even up for debate.

USGS compiled a list of factors.

Effects of introduced species on native brook trout: a guide to the scientific literature | U.S. Geological Survey

Issue: Native brook trout (Salvelinus fontinalis) are of great ecological, cultural, and economic importance in eastern North America, and their restoration is a focus of the Chesapeake Bay Program. Introduced, non-native species can jeopardize native brook trout, and more information on these...

www.usgs.gov

 

[Fish Sticks]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

The size of the fish is related to the water way they can access. So when brown trout are removed the brook trout that come back are usually not much smaller on average if any from the browns.

Silver fox knows the link but there is a public presentation or ebtjv document that shows like 40 or 50(something like that) successful removal or reintroductions across the brook trouts native range. The answer to you question considering size relative to bidy of water is, very commonly outside PA. The premise of all these removal projects is the stream was not the deal breaker which we cannot acknowledge in Pa.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Does anyone know of a stream in PA or even in the U.S. that had the invasive Brown Trout removed and where the Brook Trout are now thriving, growing to their maximum potential size and providing good fishing?

Not to mention removal of browns has saved the golden trout in its native range in california from extinction along with other rare trout of high conservation need.

 

[silverfox]

The size of the fish is related to the water way they can access. So when brown trout are removed the brook trout that come back are usually not much smaller on average if any from the browns.

Silver fox knows the link but there is a public presentation or ebtjv document that shows like 40 or 50(something like that) successful removal or reintroductions across the brook trouts native range. The answer to you question considering size relative to bidy of water is, very commonly outside PA. The premise of all these removal projects is the stream was not the deal breaker which we cannot acknowledge in Pa.

Here's the summary.

https://easternbrooktrout.org/science-data/ebtjv-assessment-data/eastern-brook-trout-restoration-summary-table/at_download/file

Here's an interesting project from Wisconsin DNR. Interestingly, WI constructs fish passage barriers, though they admit they're not completely effective.

https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/Fishing/VernonTroutTrendsBearCreekWatershed2021.pdf

This project included the construction of a trout passage barrier near the stream’s confluence with Elk Creek (Mitro and Kanehl 2016) and removal of Brown Trout upstream of the barrier by electrofishing (Fig. 6). Brook Trout initially responded positively to the removal, but the barrier was not completely effective, and Brown Trout have since re-colonized the reach, resulting in the near collapse of the Brook Trout population.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The other interesting thing is I have aeen several papers stating you might bot have to get all if them. In some cases it has been suggested you may just need to tip the ratio to brook trout for them to fight off the browns. This is based on an experiment with cutthroat and browns in the logan in Utah but there is a paper taking about the potential for that with brook trout. We know there is a micro population of a couple browns found every other year or so in the savage. Invasion biology is bot well understood and each stream is different depending on environmental resistance and biological resistance and other factors we may not even know about yet. This concept needs more proofing through research it would seem but there are plenty of instances where a low level of invasive trout cannot seem to overwhelm the native species.

It costs on avg not much more than over 10 thousand dollars to do manual removal. I don’t know why it isn’t tried at all in Pa. They could even block net and triple pass E shock when they survey a stream and just not put back the browns in a study location.

There are mixed populations that are right up stream of active stocking of brown trout where if the stocking was stopped and manual removal was undertaken id be curious to see what would happen if studied properly, especially in more acidic or infertile streams.

 

[JeffP]

PFBC Co-Op Stocking List

Interesting! I have never seen that list before. A lot of wild trout being stocked over.

 

[JeffP]

I also am sure stream are negatively impacted by all those hatcheries.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I also am sure stream are negatively impacted by all those hatcheries.

Oh absolutely and those are just coops. Private hatcheries are more more numerous. In lebanon county alot of farms and residential properties higher up the valley have em. Its basically taking best source of thermal refuge and using it to create pollution and hatchery escapees/ ivasive species. We saw what happened on big spring when the hatchery closed down, brook trout came back and there are many other streams i often wonder about how closing hatcheries would affect their prospects to keep, improve, or recover native brook trout.

 

[silverfox]

Oh absolutely and those are just coops. Private hatcheries are more more numerous. In lebanon county alot of farms and residential properties higher up the valley have em. Its basically taking best source of thermal refuge and using it to create pollution and hatchery escapees/ ivasive species. We saw what happened on big spring when the hatchery closed down, brook trout came back and there are many other streams i often wonder about how closing hatcheries would affect their prospects to keep, improve, or recover native brook trout.

Something else to think about with these hatcheries (all hatcheries) is the potential impact of warming temperatures, increased droughts, and more severe weather events (climate change). Warming may make the difference between the receiving stream being survivable and not. Drought may impact the discharge from the hatcheries by increasing the concentration of waste they produce. Extreme weather may cause flooding that could potentially damage the hatchery infrastructure which could cause increased downstream pollution or even in the event of a catastrophic failure, the unintentional release of all of the effluent to the receiving stream in one event.

 

[silverfox]

Yall know I love maps. According to PFBC, there are 161 cooperative nurseries. I had tried to determine how many private hatcheries there are in the past, but I only received the names of the companies who own them, not the physical hatchery locations. For example, the list had "Laurel Hill Trout Farm" which operates 4 hatcheries, but only accounts for 1 producer. I wasn't able to accurately determine how many hatcheries some of the producers operate, so I haven't been able to accurately add them to the list.

Here is a map of all the Co-ops with the natural reproduction layer (with tributaries).

Below is a map of where the co-op nurseries sit on a wild trout/natural reproduction stream or tributary. There are 102 hatcheries that discharge into wild trout streams. It's worth pointing out that a possible reason that there are 59 hatcheries that are NOT on wild trout streams is the hatcheries themselves.

There are 13 state hatcheries.

10 of which are on wild trout streams.

 

[caddisflyer]

Something else to think about with these hatcheries (all hatcheries) is the potential impact of warming temperatures, increased droughts, and more severe weather events (climate change). Warming may make the difference between the receiving stream being survivable and not. Drought may impact the discharge from the hatcheries by increasing the concentration of waste they produce. Extreme weather may cause flooding that could potentially damage the hatchery infrastructure which could cause increased downstream pollution or even in the event of a catastrophic failure, the unintentional release of all of the effluent to the receiving stream in one event.

Hatcheries, wastewater treatment, global warming, public sentiment. Seems like a LOT to overcome to get streams repopulated with a certain trout. I stand by my previous statement that Rainbows and Browns are the future of trout fishing. Maybe you can get a few places set aside for Brook Trout but sure seems a lot is stacked against that happening. In the meantime I plan to keep fishing happily for the invasives.

 

[silverfox]

Hatcheries, wastewater treatment, global warming, public sentiment. Seems like a LOT to overcome to get streams repopulated with a certain trout. I stand by my previous statement that Rainbows and Browns are the future of trout fishing. Maybe you can get a few places set aside for Brook Trout but sure seems a lot is stacked against that happening. In the meantime I plan to keep fishing happily for the invasives.

Right, which is why I refuse to stop talking about it simply because it makes some people uncomfortable.

 

[silverfox]

Hatcheries, wastewater treatment, global warming, public sentiment. Seems like a LOT to overcome to get streams repopulated with a certain trout. I stand by my previous statement that Rainbows and Browns are the future of trout fishing. Maybe you can get a few places set aside for Brook Trout but sure seems a lot is stacked against that happening. In the meantime I plan to keep fishing happily for the invasives.

Ted's words are far better at explaining this than mine. You have to look beyond "fishing" to understand where we're coming from.

Why a Native Fish Coalition? - Fly Fisherman

The Native Fish Coalition believes that hatchery fish should never be stocked on top of native fish or even where they might have access to native fish.

www.flyfisherman.com