PA Tail Waters

[Zak]

Maybe this topic has been beaten to death but I've got a few question someone here may have more knowledge about and can enlighten me.

1. Maryland maintains a minimum flow that is quite fishable on their key trout waters. Why is it so hard for PA to do the same?

2. Gonna use Beltzville as an example. Why on earth is the water temp still in the 40s? Why do they choose to release water from so deep so early in the year? They have other options don't they? It's seems like having water temps in the 40s into June would be detrimental to the aquatic ecosystem as this is definitely not normal.

3. Why when they need need to dump water (Del Riv is a perfect example) do they always dump it all at once and not spread it out over days? Speaking for Beltzville also again.

It seems like ACE is just a bunch of idiots in how they control all these dams. Or at the very least has a one track mind for keep pools where they want them as fast as humanly possible. It doesn't seem like it would take a lot of thought process to do things the right way. And it doesn't seem like it would have any impact except to help the wildlife downstream 1st and recreational fisherman 2nd.

Are all state ACE's different? Why does Maryland seem like they get it and PA seems like it's run by cave people? Maybe I'm the cave person for not understanding haha.

 

[Zak]

I'm gonna add a question......if you look at the Pohopoco USGS gauge below Beltzville the water temperature start dropping around noon. Why on earth would that occur??

 

[bdhoover77]

Regarding your first statement about Maryland’s minimum flows, I don’t know what the agreement with Baltimore County says about the agreed-upon minimum flow release from Prettyboy Reservoir into the Gunpowder. But whatever that amount is or is supposed to be, the current flows on the Gunpowder are very low. Granted, it does keep the temperature cold enough to support the trout population in the stream. But it would be nice to see a minimum flow of, say, 75 cfs as opposed to the current mid-30s cfs it is now.

The driving factor is the County’s need to control the flow of water between the reservoirs. I don’t think ensuring optimal fishing conditions is the County’s priority.

 

[PaScoGi]

I agree with your questions but bottom line is not enough people care about trout. its sad but true. so many simple fixes and common courtesy but with government you'll never get that.

 

[krayfish2]

Well, the PFBC implemented the "tailwater initiative" a few years back. But that did was study a few marginal possibilities, half-*** try them and then scrap the program. If you can get a response from them, please post. I've written and called them over the last 3 years without any response.

Different lakes operate differently. As a general rule, ACOE runs their lakes as flood control and any recreational benefit derived is a bonus but don't count on it. An exception, FE Walter on the Lehigh. ACOE agreed to work (within limits) to provide releases for rafting and fishing.

Impoundments like wallenpaupack are private and operated by a business (electric company). They structure releases to meet electric generation demand. They try to post release schedule for public recreation users.

You then have other impoundments like those just across the state line which are run to provide water use needs for large cities. It takes political pressure and palm greasing to get any cooperation from state / federal entities. These tailwaters sometimes get water and get no water at other times. The established fisheries are starting to gain some protection of the ecosystem that developed as a result of the lake being built.

As for the PO release, what do you see wrong? If they release colder water during the hottest part of the day, winner in my book. Sending a cool shot to cool the stream and the one it flows into seems pretty solid to me.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Zak,

Most of these reservoirs were built for other purposes, chiefly flood control. A fishable lake with the opportunity to release water is a bonus. Since they weren't built with the idea of making water suitable for trout the options for releases are rather limited. The valves may be strictly bottom release values, like Beltzville. Or they may draw from the mid-level or even an upper level. Few dams are built with the ability to combine flows from multiple levels to better regulate the temperature.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Zak]

Interesting. I found it odd that Beltzville releases went from the mid 50s to the mid 40s overnight a few weeks ago and remain there. I have no issue with cold releases as a trout fisherman but if you can choose between the two it seems odd to dig deep so early in the year when you'll need it in August. I digress though.

As for Maryland the Savage and NB Potomac are also under min flow rules. I just find it interesting how we can't get any of our dams aside from FEW and the Yough to even remotely play ball. And I do understand it take lobbying power. Government.........

 

[Zak]

And thanks for the comments thus far

 

[krayfish2]

BTW, raystown and kinzua would be unbelievable if managed that way.... but they never will. Oh well

 

[Zak]

The Raystown one is perplexing but I know least about that. It looks like a lovely peice of water where it flows under the turnpike.

 

[jifigz]

The Raystown one is perplexing but I know least about that. It looks like a lovely peice of water where it flows under the turnpike.

You're not talking about the same stretch of water. The tailwater would be below the dam which is a short piece of water from the dam to Point Access....maybe 5 miles? It could be neat I think, but who knows. Kray is right though and it won't happen. They would have to do major renovations to the dam to make this happen and that's not the reason it was built. I don't think the recreational value of a trout tailwater fishery is enough to make it happen and I honestly don't blame them..

Don't forget we have lots of good trout water without the need for tailwaters, but it would be interesting to see some managed for trout and see what happens.

 

[Zak]

Oh ya for sure. It's just really driven home during low water periods like this when you could have a few places flowing better if they chose to.

 

[Mike]

Interesting. I found it odd that Beltzville releases went from the mid 50s to the mid 40s overnight a few weeks ago and remain there. I have no issue with cold releases as a trout fisherman but if you can choose between the two it seems odd to dig deep so early in the year when you'll need it in August. I digress though.

As for Maryland the Savage and NB Potomac are also under min flow rules. I just find it interesting how we can't get any of our dams aside from FEW and the Yough to even remotely play ball. And I do understand it take lobbying power. Government.........

Blue Marsh “plays ball.”
They are limited in what they can do, however, given the volume of cold water available that even in the best years, defined by low precipitation, isn’t enough for cool discharges to make it past about Aug 4. Typically in other yrs they run out around July 22.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Blue Marsh “plays ball.”
They are limited in what they can do, however, given the volume of cold water available that even in the best years, defined by low precipitation, isn’t enough for cool discharges to make it past about Aug 4. Typically in other yrs they run out around July 22.

Lol. The one that "plays ball" lacks batting helmets, gloves and uniforms while the "professional athletes" are on permanent strike.

That isn't a knock on BM. They do indeed play ball. It's a shame they are limited by what they have.

 

[caddisflyer]

BTW, raystown and kinzua would be unbelievable if managed that way.... but they never will. Oh well

Absolutely. With increasing population and interest in trout fishing along with over pressured streams like Penns and Spring it would be fantastic. Unless you have experienced what these big tailwaters are like you have no idea how great they can be. They spend a lot of money on restoration of crappy streams that will never amount to anything when they could have MILES of great fishing just by creating bottom releases. Not to mention the boon to local economy in these areas.

 

[Prospector]

There was a mention about Kinzua being a great cold water fishery tailrace. I live on the west side of the state where the world class fishery for SM Bass, Walleye and Muskie was the Allegheny River and French Creek in NWPA. Then around 1970 the state built many recreational lakes around the Commonwealth and that shifted the population to fish places like Lake Arthur, Lake Willhelm, etc. for LM Bass, Pike, muskie and panfish.

As a young boy I heard the generation above me lamenting that the Allegheny River became so cold after Kinzua was operational that the SM Bass had eggs still in them far into summer. The bass population supposedly crashed. This was recounted hundreds of times. I can’t speak to the accuracy since I was a youngster.

I suspect there may be some residual sentiment that a cold water fishery could take away opportunities for those folks that aren’t trout fishers who would rather pursue SM Bass muskie and Walleye. For trout fishers it would be great.

 

[foxfire]

Absolutely. With increasing population and interest in trout fishing along with over pressured streams like Penns and Spring it would be fantastic. Unless you have experienced what these big tailwaters are like you have no idea how great they can be. They spend a lot of money on restoration of crappy streams that will never amount to anything when they could have MILES of great fishing just by creating bottom releases. Not to mention the boon to local economy in these areas.

Agreed, but then the warm-water crowd would complain. My guess is they far outnumber us trout centric folks.

 

[afishinado]

There was a mention about Kinzua being a great cold water fishery tailrace. I live on the west side of the state where the world class fishery for SM Bass, Walleye and Muskie was the Allegheny River and French Creek in NWPA. Then around 1970 the state built many recreational lakes around the Commonwealth and that shifted the population to fish places like Lake Arthur, Lake Willhelm, etc. for LM Bass, Pike, muskie and panfish.

As a young boy I heard the generation above me lamenting that the Allegheny River became so cold after Kinzua was operational that the SM Bass had eggs still in them far into summer. The bass population supposedly crashed. This was recounted hundreds of times. I can’t speak to the accuracy since I was a youngster.

I suspect there may be some residual sentiment that a cold water fishery could take away opportunities for those folks that aren’t trout fishers who would rather pursue SM Bass muskie and Walleye. For trout fishers it would be great.

+1 to Prosector's post. The same story in the Eastern part of the state. The Cannonsville Reservoir was put into service on the Delaware River in the mid 60's, and many anglers at the time bemoaned it's creation because it ruined the great smallie fishing in the upper Delaware. As they say, "one man's trash is another man's treasure."

 

[jifigz]

As a local to the area of the Raystown Dam I think the locals would not like the transition of the Raystown Branch below the dam to a cold-water trout fishery. It would change the nice warm and relaxing river and all the campsites along it and bring an influx of unwanted outsiders. If you're not familiar with the Huntingdon/Mifflin/Juniata region and the river, the smallmouth bass fishery means a lot to folks. Campsites are like gold and there is some sort of special pride in being a redneck "river-rat." I can identify with this having grown up here and spent much of my time sloshing around in the Juniata in old sneakers learning about all sorts of things.

There is an abundance of nice and relaxing campsites along that portion of Raystown Branch and I doubt the people that utilize it for R&R want outsiders with fancy, pretentious gear and attitudes overtaking their redneck paradise. Plus there is a lot of trout water around that stays cold year round.

I don't know, the Raystown Branch might be very cool and could potentially be an amazing trout river. The needs and wants of us trout-centric folks don't just supersede the needs and wants of all others, though.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

spot on. Same reason the Bald Eagle won't go all C&R or have FF only anytime soon. There are longstanding traditions and culture associated with various waterways.