PA Tail Waters

It’s not an excuse; it’s logical. These lake fisheries are quite valuable too. When I was a PFBC AFM I never heard that “excuse” mentioned once, but I would also add that there are safety considerations and facility design limitations for boaters and skiers to consider if a discharge regimen lowers lake surface levels.

I had two tail-race coldwater fisheries and no potential others. I had no concerns about depletion of cold water at that time in Lake Marburg/Codorus Ck and I clearly had that problem to deal with at Blue Marsh/Tulpehocken Ck when we (ACOE and me) tried different discharge regimens over a few years that would produce the best longer term temps that we could get.
 
I believe the minimum flow on the GP is only 13 cfs. Luckily they keep around 30 when it's low but that's not guaranteed.
 
As for bottom release of cold water destroying the SMB fisheries.... not really, it slides them downriver a few miles at the worst. Raystown is a very interesting one. 50° release would cover the entire branch and add a cold/cool water supply to the Juniata that would stretch another 5+ miles before becoming diluted. You would have large migratory browns in the Juniata that would be able to roam the main river from late September through early July. Insect life, forage base and big water conditions has great potential to produce some rather large BT. Side benefit to SMB would be cooling the main river a couple of degrees for quite a few miles. If I'm not mistaken, SMB would rather be in 77 degree water as opposed to 89 degree water.
It's an interesting proposition that could improve temperatures for bass and create a destination brown fishery.

Kinzua would have to be one of the largest trout tailwaters east of the Mississippi....if it was a bottom release. You have to remember that the cold water fades away after only 10-20 miles depending on temperature and flow. Bass, walleye and musky would still exist but most would slide down to find their optimal temperature range. Again, BIG habit lends to growing BIG fish.

Neither will ever happen. Both would be destination fisheries which would bring influx of money to those areas in the form of lodging, food/restaurant, tackle shops, boat rental, etc. I think they did a study on the Delaware tailwaters which brings in 32 mil of outside money into those communities.
 
I'd be willing to bet that your 32 million is low. And extends beyond the Delawate basin. .
 
Some good points. The fish will find the zones that best suit them. Musky really do not thrive in super warm water. Each species has their preference. It would not be all about trout only. Creating an awesome sport fishery seems like a great idea. Our economy is changing and something like this would be a nice addition
 
Since Raystown Dam is owned and operated by the Army Corp of Engineers, who would pay for major renovations to the dam? How would such changes benefit the Corp? Why would the Corp agree to changes to the dam when they would, most likely, benefit little?

I am not against the changing of the Raystown Branch below the spillway to a trout fishing tailwater but I really don't see it ever happening. I see it as a pipe dream, so to speak. The bass fishing on that section of the river until Point Access is actually fairly lousy anyways, at least compared to the mainstem of the river below Point Access.

As far as the cool water benefit affecting the river below the confluence of the two branches at Point Access, I don't think that would be as beneficial as you all might believe. I also don't think it would be overly detrimental. Do you think the Raystown Branch would warm to 60 degrees by the time it hit Point Access?

Either way, thermal concerns are not much of an issue up here in my parts. SMB, walleye, and musky are cool-water fish. They do not prefer temperatures in the high 80's or 90's. I was just fishing the Juniata the other night near my parents' place, this is way down river from where the dam is, about 35 miles, and the water temp was only 72 degrees. Compare this to Kettle Creek that was hitting 74 degrees routinely in Cross Fork while I was in Potter County. The Juniata is a much larger body of water and it is holding temps that good there...amazing. I know we have had significantly cool nights recently, but our water never warms that much up here due to many spring influences and cold tribs. Really, hitting 80 degrees even during the hottest and lowest water of the summer is pretty damn warm for the Juniata in my area. So basically my point here is that I don't think the minimal cooling effect of that one branch would have any positive effect on our "warmwater" species below the confluence. We do not have thermal issues here on a regular basis like I have heard you fellas report about the lower Susky.
 
jifigz said:
Since Raystown Dam is owned and operated by the Army Corp of Engineers, who would pay for major renovations to the dam? How would such changes benefit the Corp? Why would the Corp agree to changes to the dam when they would, most likely, benefit little?

I am not against the changing of the Raystown Branch below the spillway to a trout fishing tailwater but I really don't see it ever happening. I see it as a pipe dream, so to speak. The bass fishing on that section of the river until Point Access is actually fairly lousy anyways, at least compared to the mainstem of the river below Point Access.

As far as the cool water benefit affecting the river below the confluence of the two branches at Point Access, I don't think that would be as beneficial as you all might believe. I also don't think it would be overly detrimental. Do you think the Raystown Branch would warm to 60 degrees by the time it hit Point Access?

Either way, thermal concerns are not much of an issue up here in my parts. SMB, walleye, and musky are cool-water fish. They do not prefer temperatures in the high 80's or 90's. I was just fishing the Juniata the other night near my parents' place, this is way down river from where the dam is, about 35 miles, and the water temp was only 72 degrees. Compare this to Kettle Creek that was hitting 74 degrees routinely in Cross Fork while I was in Potter County. The Juniata is a much larger body of water and it is holding temps that good there...amazing. I know we have had significantly cool nights recently, but our water never warms that much up here due to many spring influences and cold tribs. Really, hitting 80 degrees even during the hottest and lowest water of the summer is pretty damn warm for the Juniata in my area. So basically my point here is that I don't think the minimal cooling effect of that one branch would have any positive effect on our "warmwater" species below the confluence. We do not have thermal issues here on a regular basis like I have heard you fellas report about the lower Susky.
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Bingo. Most of those Maryland impoundments were built with release towers with gates at multiple heights to allow the mixing of the discharge water to meet downstream water quality targets. JRL was built specifically for water quality improvements to the Potomac.

Conversely, most of the PA impoundments were built as flood control systems or drinking water reservoirs. To retrofit those reservoirs to allow the mixing of water to hit pH and temperature targets would be astronomical. For what? So a relatively small group of people get an artificial trout fishery 365 days a year? Who's going to pay for that?

It's not about how these projects are managed by ACOE or anyone else. They weren't designed or built to do what some people want them to do.
 
In the reservoirs down south some places have good striper fisheries where the stripers head up into the tailwaters and eat freshly stocked trout. Out in CA the trophy largemouth lakes, like Lake Castaic, are where the bass chow down on fresh stocked rainbows. Warm/cool water fisheries do coexist some places.
 
On the Youghiogheny River at Confluence, PA, from the dam to the Ramcat area below the town of Confluence, it is trout water. I’ve fished there for over thirty years and have only caught trout. The farther you get down river, closer to the falls, it is more smallmouth area, especially in the flat water stretches. Friends floated it a few years back and caught five times as many smallmouths as trout.
 
Checking the USGS today 06/09/23, the entire state is just about all red. I noticed the Shenango River in Sharpsville is in the green and is a tailwater stream. I lived in the area and fished there as a teenager in the 70's. I didn't pay attention of the water temperature then but I thought the gates at the dam were near the middle lower section. Does anyone know if it is a cold water stream and supports reproduction?
 
laszlo said:
Checking the USGS today 06/09/23, the entire state is just about all red. I noticed the Shenango River in Sharpsville is in the green and is a tailwater stream. I lived in the area and fished there as a teenager in the 70's. I didn't pay attention of the water temperature then but I thought the gates at the dam were near the middle lower section. Does anyone know if it is a cold water stream and supports reproduction?
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I fished there a bit years ago too.

Can't recall it being very cold.
Always seemed to have caddis hatching, with stocked trout rising to it.

It got taken off the ATW list at some point, due to pollution I believe
 
Beltzville is having issues with its selective withdrawal gates at higher elevations in the lake. They are currently discharging from the flood control gates at the bottom that is why the release is so cold.

As for why we don't have more tailwater fisheries like Maryland. Its very simple. You need to have a fisheries agency and director(s) that are committed to establishing those types of fisheries. When Maryland developed those reservoirs, they had a director that had the ambition and foresight (and authority) to establish those types of fisheries.
 
Wow so much love for the creation of artificial trout fisheries.
 
LehighRegular said:
Beltzville is having issues with its selective withdrawal gates at higher elevations in the lake. They are currently discharging from the flood control gates at the bottom that is why the release is so cold.

As for why we don't have more tailwater fisheries like Maryland. Its very simple. You need to have a fisheries agency and director(s) that are committed to establishing those types of fisheries. When Maryland developed those reservoirs, they had a director that had the ambition and foresight (and authority) to establish those types of fisheries.
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To my knowledge there is no state authority that can force the Army Corps of Engineers to modify structures or operate outside of or in conflict with the individual ACOE facility operational plans. Additionally, the question was raised above about who would pay for dam modifications when needed to provide coldwater fisheries. Most likely the portion of the public that pays federal taxes.
 
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Mike said:
To my knowledge there is no state authority that can force the Army Corps of Engineers to modify structures or operate outside of or in conflict with the individual ACOE facility operational plans. Additionally, the question was raised above about who would pay for dam modifications when needed to provide coldwater fisheries. Most likely the portion of the public that pays federal taxes.
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It would have to be internal authority within the agency/commission to pursue and advocate for operational changes with ACOE. As for PFBC, the commissioners would need to direct Tim Schaeffer to pursue and advocate for changes, they would also need to set policy. As for the money, have you ever seen the ACOE budget? Where do you think all that money comes from? It would be money well spent, IMO. Improve economic viability to the local region, can not be outsourced, return of investment will be 100 X over the lifetime, address climate change issues, etc.
 
Not sure if MD is better at this than PA. The water held behind the Conowingo Dam holds such a vast layer of residential and industrial sludge, that nobody wants to even start to remediate it. As long as the generators keep spinning...
 
laszlo said:
Checking the USGS today 06/09/23, the entire state is just about all red. I noticed the Shenango River in Sharpsville is in the green and is a tailwater stream. I lived in the area and fished there as a teenager in the 70's. I didn't pay attention of the water temperature then but I thought the gates at the dam were near the middle lower section. Does anyone know if it is a cold water stream and supports reproduction?
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It used to get stocked and has a decent caddis hatch, but the lake is not very deep. The target summer pool is only 30ft. Temps exceeded 68 degrees from June through most of September last year and that is according to the USGS site at the tailwater. So 4 months of at or near 70 with a large portion of that time above 75.

Stocking ceased when a do-not-eat advisory was placed on all fish form the river below the dam due to PCBs. There is a history of PCBs being dumped or buried in the Sharpsville/Sharon area and those sites have not been located and remediated.

The water does not run very clear, anything over one foot of vis is exceptional IMO. I seem to recall it being much clearer in the summer over a decade ago, but it is almost always brown now. From what I've seen, the lake is usually turbid and has algae blooms. The river does have a pretty good warm water fishery and the tailrace was a popular spot for walleye. I've caught smallmouth up to 2lbs and know of many people who catch some pretty impressive pike, muskie, and catfish out of the river. Some areas are loaded with smallmouth where the habitat is right for them.
 
Disclaimer: I'm not sure about all this, but...

I heard or read Army Corps Dams built after a certain date are managed with run of the river temps, per policy. Run of the river temps means same temps going out of the dam as in the river above the reservoir. The goal is not have the dam and reservoir impact the water temperatures.

Some dams that were cold tailwaters before this date were "grandfathered in" and continue to manage for coldwater fisheries.

I called the Corps regarding Kinzua Dam and Sayers Dam (Bald Eagle Creek) and both said they manage for run-of-the-river temps. I either read or heard that Raystown Dam also manages for run-of-the-river temps.

I either heard or read that the dam on the Youghiogheny does not have the gear to finesse their flows. So they run very cold water until they run out, then you get warm water flowing in late summer and early fall. I once took a temperature of 80F at Ohiopyle.
 
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Interesting about the "run of the river temps"
First time I can recall hearing that.

As for the Youghiogheny, along with the East Branch Clarion river dams - they're both flood control dams built in the forties.
As far as I know, neither has the capabilities of multi level release.
Water just comes from bottom.
Don't think "grandfather" application really applies there.

Been a happy coincidence for me though.
Two places I can go in the middle of a hot summer, and still find trout rising in 50 degree water.
 
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