PA Fish Commission trout fishing survey results >

[JimKennedy]

A couple things:

Everyone I’ve ever met or had contact with in fisheries and wildlife management got into it because they liked to fish or hunt or both.

These same wildlife managers are the ones who conduct surveys, and they do it because they want to know what we anglers like and don’t like.

We anglers are a cantankerous lot and we can’t even agree on which fly to use when starting a day on the water.

If you only agree with surveys that tell you what you want to hear, don’t expect to ever learn anything new.

If you think there’s a cabal that denied you, one of tens of thousands of people with trout stamps, one of the statistically sufficient 3000 survey spots, I don’t want you doing any math for me.

If you want fisheries managers to hear your voice, talk to them stream side, invite them to your fishing club meetings, send them your thoughts (not your angry screeds), and when you have questions or comments about their reports, send them emails.

Be involved with the sport we love. And if you want to see fishing license sales go up, take your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews fishing. Invite your non fishing friends and colleagues to go fishing.

Fly fishing is fun, so if you’re having fun, you’re doing it right.

 

[Fish Sticks]

View attachment 1641233156

Yes too many cherrys to chose from. Guess you missed the stats on PFBC’s hatcheries pathogen rates compared to other states in the other thread

 

[Fish Sticks]

View attachment 1641233156

I know that “steelhead” looks a LITTLE worse than your average PFBC rainbow

 

[Fish Sticks]

All conservation(that does not exist) aside, from a fishing standpoint they are wasting so much money suppressing both wild invasive trout populations and wild native trout populations in streams that would be fishable on their own. And you could let the consumptive anglers consume invasive trout and see what happens. Will catch rates go down? Well i guess that depends because for the first two weeks of april yes. Many streams even in pre colonial conditions cannot produce the amount of 11” fish that get dumped into these tiny oublic sections/ areas. There is some max productivity per hectare of a trout stream I biologist once told me these stockings exceed. But the flip side is if you did not stock it. The catch rate would be higher in alot of these streams the other 10-11 months of the year.

Why does everyone and their grandmother have to line up on the same stupid Facking day of the year and fish a stream that hatchery fish will ruin for that year. We have seen studies that macros tank after these pulse stockings it pulse out the base of the food wed to extent. Instead of having ab uncrowded place where kids can catch either wild invasive/native trout or warm water fish at a higher rate year round you get an off putting experience that damages the fish ability of the stream for the majority of the year unless its the yellow breeches where 6-8+ entities stock year round.

It wastes money
The circus is losing us many of the next generation of fishing
It’s destroying our aquatic ecosystems from fish to hellbenders to macros
Many run on private property anyway where you just get ecological damage and no social “benefit”

You can put as many coates of paint on this turd of a trout program as you want but its still molten feces inside.

 

[Hilltop]

All conservation(that does not exist) aside, from a fishing standpoint they are wasting so much money suppressing both wild invasive trout populations and wild native trout populations in streams that would be fishable on their own. And you could let the consumptive anglers consume invasive trout and see what happens. Will catch rates go down? Well i guess that depends because for the first two weeks of april yes. Many streams even in pre colonial conditions cannot produce the amount of 11” fish that get dumped into these tiny oublic sections/ areas. There is some max productivity per hectare of a trout stream I biologist once told me these stockings exceed. But the flip side is if you did not stock it. The catch rate would be higher in alot of these streams the other 10-11 months of the year.

Why does everyone and their grandmother have to line up on the same stupid Facking day of the year and fish a stream that hatchery fish will ruin for that year. We have seen studies that macros tank after these pulse stockings it pulse out the base of the food wed to extent. Instead of having ab uncrowded place where kids can catch either wild invasive/native trout or warm water fish at a higher rate year round you get an off putting experience that damages the fish ability of the stream for the majority of the year unless its the yellow breeches where 6-8+ entities stock year round.

It wastes money
The circus is losing us many of the next generation of fishing
It’s destroying our aquatic ecosystems from fish to hellbenders to macros
Many run on private property anyway where you just get ecological damage and no social “benefit”

You can put as many coates of paint on this turd of a trout program as you want but its still molten feces inside.

I think alot of people on this board really do agree with this. I just think when it comes to fishing you're operating on a higher level than most people by thinking about the biology of a stream, watershed, ecosystem etc. I mean walk a stocked section of an urban/suburban stream opening weekend and just observe the people; if you read them the above post or some of your others you'd be lucky if you got a response other than a blank stare.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I think alot of people on this board really do agree with this. I just think when it comes to fishing you're operating on a higher level than most people by thinking about the biology of a stream, watershed, ecosystem etc. I mean walk a stocked section of an urban/suburban stream opening weekend and just observe the people; if you read them the above post or some of your others you'd be lucky if you got a response other than a blank stare.

I would totally agree with you. They are only what PAFBC has conditioned them to be. They know the limit. They know the minimum size. They know DHALO vs. fly fishing only ect. These are things PFBC has made clear and posted massive amounts of sinage and other angler education because it feels to be important to them that every angler know.

To your point about the blank stares. Smoky the bear was one of the most successful Ad council education campaigns we have seen. We are missing 50 years of “only you can prevent invasive species” when it comes to moving fish. Instead of providing this important messaging PFBC ‘s largest financial commitment is raising invasive trout and Ubering them to pristine ecosystems with the great white aquatic invasive hitchhiker fleet. Theres a half century of common sense messaging to the public missing here that could be coming from PFBC, DCNR, and ANF. And instead they are getting the opposite messaging.

The Pellet pigs that make up the leadership at PFBC have social media, constantly requested interviews and statements to the press, YouTube, school class trips, regulations booklets, Thousands and thousands of signs across our state, and many in person education angler events. If they actually started doing their job educating the public may have a huge impact in just a decade or so given we are in a global mass extinction event.

The truth is PA fish and boat is a Dinosour that is largely just a hatchery program as a whole created post Industrial Revolution when rivers caught on fire that we have no need for at all. They need to be dissolved and have staff just work under DCNR and focus on their responsibilities as resource mangers statewide. Then henera fund gets license money; DCNR gets general fund, and the same stock invasive species or bust mentality goes away.

They are the inflamed appendix of our state agencies. They once had a purpose, they are now just a useless vestigial organ that only serves to fester become ischemic and rotten. Others states have their DNR’s or DECS handle fishing we have a DCNR that is limited to state parks and not even in control there and a “fish and boat commission”…..why?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

yes. That 800ft section is public property. Oddly, when it was donated to the commonwealth it was subsequently surveyed and found to be Class A. So is the Harvey stretch. So is Warriors Mark Run. The entirety of spruce creek should be classified as Class A. It isn't. That allows Fantasy Land Inc.™ to stock mutants. Those mutants end up in the public water too. Last time I went to the cavern section it was absolutely full of stocked rainbows and browns.

I have several problems with that whole ordeal, which isn't the point of the thread, but it was brought up by someone else.

• The cavern section is already Class A, so why "improve" it?
• The entirety of spruce is likely already Class A. Does it need improved further? Even if that 800ft benefits the rest of the stream, why?
• There is so little public access on the stream, using publicly donated funds there seems like a slap in the face. The two public sections combined are only a little over half a mile of water.
• The commission knows that spruce shouldn't be stocked. Improving the habitat while that's going on is a waste of money. Like putting new tires on your car when the engine is about to explode.
• There are so many more wild trout streams that are fully on public property that need help that using it on spruce is insulting (IMO).
• Anyone who would have visited the cavern section during the fall before the "improvement" project would've found countless redd in the fine gravels and gentle/consistent flows in that section. I haven't been there personally this fall, but a friend was and said it was virtually devoid of fish. I'm sure they're under the lunker bunkers, but they aren't using it for spawning now.
• If work needed to be done on the stream, why didn't beaver or harpster donate any money? It was all public/tax dollars. Again, yes, the 800ft is public, but the other 98.5% (actual % of private ownership) isn't, and the people who benefit from the stream financially should've kicked in a few bucks since they're the ones who have profited from it for decades.

I'd also like to point out that I was a big cheerleader for the voluntary permits. I defended PFBC when a bunch of other folks on here suggested they would squander/misuse the funds. I ate crow. They did exactly what others said they would do, and I learned my lesson.

This.
I am in the same boat on this. Purchased them right up until I learned how the money was spent. I won't be doing it ever again.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This.
I am in the same boat on this. Purchased them right up until I learned how the money was spent. I won't be doing it ever again.

Yea I was a one and done as well when I saw the lincoln log/rip rap BS of projects they were doing. Creating wiggly ditches of streams trying to restrict them from moving in flood plain. I would have been so much happier if they just picked some severely degraded streams neighboring high quality brook trout streams and just did flood plain work.

 

[tomgamber]

You can put as many coates of paint on this turd of a trout program as you want but its still molten feces inside.

This is so enlightening because no one has ever said anything like this on this board before. Ever. certainly not in every single freakin' thread.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This is so enlightening because no one has ever said anything like this on this board before. Ever. certainly not in every single freakin' thread.

Its because no one has ever repeatedly applied thousands of coates of paint to this turd on the board before 🙄

 

[silverfox]

This.
I am in the same boat on this. Purchased them right up until I learned how the money was spent. I won't be doing it ever again.

I should’ve pointed out/been more specific, that the reason the remainder of spruce isn’t class a already has nothing to do with habitat or sediment. It’s purely political/private/pfbc afraid to upset the apple cart.

Doing habitat work on spruce is a waste of money.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Oh yea Id love to know what kind of sweetheart deals/disgusting relationships exist between PFBC and these private operations as far as who gets a pass. Dirty dozen type entities like laurel hill trout farms, slate run brown trout club, and all the private financial interests that got PFBC to fold on a stocking authorization after announcing they would do it then walking jt back to a “notification” with no teeth for profiteering private sector entities. There must be holes in their knee pads at PFBC

 

[CRB]

Spuce Creek /Homewaters have more $$$ than 99% us.
You'll never get into that group even you as a Dr.
Their money goes deeper than PAFBC

 

[poopdeck]

Perhaps we should call in the FBI. Time to start slapping some Rico act violations on the PFBC. the lunacy of this thread really takes away from the message. You know what they say, lunacy in one lunacy in all. Okay, maybe I made that up but it’s true.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Spuce Creek /Homewaters have more $$$ than 99% us.
You'll never get into that group even you as a Dr.
Their money goes deeper than PAFBC

Being a Doctor does mean you make a lot of money 😉

 

[Fish Sticks]

Perhaps we should call in the FBI. Time to start slapping some Rico act violations on the PFBC. the lunacy of this thread really takes away from the message. You know what they say, lunacy in one lunacy in all. Okay, maybe I made that up but it’s true.

what about the PA fish and Boat coming out with a statement saying they plan to create a stocking authorization (something ever other northeast state has in one form or another), and then back tracking publicly after taking heat from laurel hill trout farms, the slate run brown trout club, and others makes you think they did not cater to special interests. There was so much public interest in that auth from most anglers. Instead anyone who does not drink the PFBC coolaid is a lunatic. Oh no but not the person who defends a financially and ecologically FUBAR trout program. If you want to change it your crazy despite objective documents and research showing their fish are causing the decline of stuff we are paying to protect. All you coo coo for coa coa puff stiff for stocker types have is insults because your defending something that is such dog sh*t that any logic cannot be included in your argument. Please elaborate how many more millions of our tax dollars we should fork over to prop up a failing state business that is destroying aquatic biodiversity? Please make your argument

 

[poopdeck]

There was no insult in my reply. Read it again. If you have the goods on the PFBC then reporting it to the FBI is a better solution then the constant complaining, conspiracies, and name calling on a fly fishing website. Don’t you think? effective communication is totally lost on you which is why your message will never be heard. No matter how valid your point may be, all your doing is driving others further away from your intended position. I’m sorry but normal conversation cannot be had with you and I have no intentions of attempting to do so with somebody who simply wants to jump to conclusions and yell louder. See how far your message is getting. For the record, I am not a trout fishermen. Stocked, wild, native, invasive, I generally fish for none of them but would not be unhappy in catching any of them. Blather on if you must but I’m done.

 

[Mike]

Please elaborate how many more millions of our tax dollars we should fork over to prop up a failing state business

Assuming sales taxes go to the state’s General Fund,I wouldn’t have a problem with the General Fund potentially forking over the amount that is equivalent to the sales tax collected by Pa on any fishing and boating related products. Similarly, I also would appreciate motor fuel taxes paid by boaters on their fuel purchases for their boats being forked over to the PFBC. If there would be unusual circumstances in which general or fuel related state funds would be provided for specific projects, such as for restoration of some of PFBC’s hazardous dams, I’d say these and a number of other other big ticket items that would potentially strain PFBC fishing license (fish fund) or boat registration (boat fund) funds would be appropriate candidates for pay-back of what I’d guess would be a small portion of anglers’ and boaters’ sales and fuel tax dollars collected over the years.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There was no insult in my reply. Read it again. If you have the goods on the PFBC then reporting it to the FBI is a better solution then the constant complaining, conspiracies, and name calling on a fly fishing website. Don’t you think? effective communication is totally lost on you which is why your message will never be heard. No matter how valid your point may be, all your doing is driving others further away from your intended position. I’m sorry but normal conversation cannot be had with you and I have no intentions of attempting to do so with somebody who simply wants to jump to conclusions and yell louder. See how far your message is getting. For the record, I am not a trout fishermen. Stocked, wild, native, invasive, I generally fish for none of them but would not be unhappy in catching any of them. Blather on if you must but I’m done.

I will let you in on a little secret because I have been talking to anglers about this for a long time. There is NO MANNER many anglers want to hear this topic broached. Why would they? They have it how they want it and don’t care about the consequences. Really by just not talking about it because it upsets some people allows the same garbage falsehoods about fisheries management/ invasive species holding back conservation to recirculate over and over again in the angling community like farts in an airplane.

Youd rather people just not talk about stocking reform

Youd rather we ignore it

Youd rather we not hold PFBC accountable and pursue stocking reform

Sorry that’s happening with our without fish sticks. Suggest burry head in sand

 

[nymphingmaniac]

Not accurate numbers but from a PFBC perspective:
we sell 100,000 trout stamps
we only have 1,000 optional wild trout permits sold.
Why wouldn't PFBC think they are serving the public by emphasizing a stocking program?
Sometimes putting your $ where your mouth is speaks louder

I prefer to recognize the new attention to wild trout fisheries by PFBC. It may not be where I'd like it to be but I sense a real shift. The organization that really needs to be sat on is DEP. I feel they are usually the ones holding up CWF, HQCWF designations that give essential protections to waters.