Over- or Under-weight line?

[foxfire]

I took my old Sage DS 8'6" 5Wt out today since it has been getting ignored & dusty lately. The majority of my fly fishing for the past year or so has been with my beginner Orvis Encounter 9' 5Wt. rod, and I'm getting conditioned to casting that. Conditioned, mind you, not good. But used to it nonetheless.

So the old Sage was a bit of a wake up call. It casts much differently. Slower, softer action. I sometimes found myself beginning my forward cast before the back cast had finished loading. A case of letting my mental timing overriding my physical feel of the rod flex.

Which got me to thinking. Although the rod is labelled 5/6 Wt., since it is slower & softer would it actually be better if I dropped down to a 4Wt. line? Or go up to a 6Wt.? Or am I overthinking this issue and simply need to remember it casts differently and use it more with the 5Wt. line?

Overthinking.

 

[FiveWeight]

I took my old Sage DS 8'6" 5Wt out today since it has been getting ignored & dusty lately. The majority of my fly fishing for the past year or so has been with my beginner Orvis Encounter 9' 5Wt. rod, and I'm getting conditioned to casting that. Conditioned, mind you, not good. But used to it nonetheless.

So the old Sage was a bit of a wake up call. It casts much differently. Slower, softer action. I sometimes found myself beginning my forward cast before the back cast had finished loading. A case of letting my mental timing overriding my physical feel of the rod flex.

Which got me to thinking. Although the rod is labelled 5/6 Wt., since it is slower & softer would it actually be better if I dropped down to a 4Wt. line? Or go up to a 6Wt.? Or am I overthinking this issue and simply need to remember it casts differently and use it more with the 5Wt. line?

I go a number over on some of my older glass rods. I have a Orvis Clearwater 5Wt that I go a number over. Much of it depends on the action of the rod, what you are throwing and how you like the rod to behave for you.

 

[krayfish2]

To be 100% honest, the action of the rod is the action of the rod. Putting a 4wt on it doesn't really speed it up, just lets you have longer lines out without over stressing the rod. 6wt line might make it easier to toss short casts but it technically doesn't slow the rod down.

Sell it if you don't like it but a better suggestion is to keep it....put a DT 5wt on it and learn how to use it again. To become a good caster, you need to be able to recognize the rod action and adapt to it in a matter of a few minutes. You can do it. If you think it's slow, you should have started out with the Shakespeare buggy whip I learned on. It was a 2 second pause between forward stroke and back stroke.

 

[foxfire]

To be 100% honest, the action of the rod is the action of the rod. Putting a 4wt on it doesn't really speed it up, just lets you have longer lines out without over stressing the rod. 6wt line might make it easier to toss short casts but it technically doesn't slow the rod down.

Sell it if you don't like it but a better suggestion is to keep it....put a DT 5wt on it and learn how to use it again. To become a good caster, you need to be able to recognize the rod action and adapt to it in a matter of a few minutes. You can do it. If you think it's slow, you should have started out with the Shakespeare buggy whip I learned on. It was a 2 second pause between forward stroke and back stroke.

At least 2 seconds!! Thanks for the memories!!

 

[krayfish2]

Think it was a Shakespeare alpha, 7', 6/7 wt.

 

[Bamboozle]

Slightly OT but when I bought my first fiberglass fly rod around 2006 (a 6'6" 3wt Winston Retro) I took it to a local small stocked creek to take it for a spin.

My first reaction was, "Uh oh, I just blew $400."

I couldn't cast it worth a lick because despite that the rest of my rods were a solid medium, this new stick was slower. So I adjusted my casting stroke, let the rod do the work and in minute or two I had it figured out.

Today it is one of my absolute favorite rods to fish with AND I have easily cast it over 70 feet although that's not why I added it to my quiver.

Obviously YMMV, but there's a reason they make lagers AND IPA's.

 

[Swattie87]

We’re all gentlemen here. Don’t be calling anybody’s “boo” slow or overweight.

If my Mrs. catches wind of any of that sort of thing, you and I are gonna tangle next time we’re on the stream. And I don’t mean crossing lines and then sitting on the bank undoing the bird’s nest together over a cold beer.

 

[Bamboozle]

We’re all gentlemen here. Don’t be calling anybody’s “boo” slow or overweight.

If my Mrs. catches wind of any of that sort of thing, you and I are gonna tangle next time we’re on the stream. And I don’t mean crossing lines and then sitting on the bank undoing the bird’s nest together over a cold beer.

I've been called "slow and overweight" a few times...

 

[BrookieChaser]

I started fishing with a 6' 5wt Shakespeare Wonderrod. I understand that "2 second pause", and once you laid the line down the tip of the rod would move for 2 seconds.

 

[a23fish]

Update to my original question. As some of you have pointed out, I may be overthinking things and just need more time with the rod and its current WF5F line. I've had it out three times in the past week, and I am getting the feel for casting with it. I've even caught fish with it. So I'll leave the current line on it and just try to be more in tune with its characteristics.

I appreciate all the responses. Who knows, maybe I will play around with a different line in the future and see how that goes.

Thanks folks!

 

[salmo]

Update to my original question. As some of you have pointed out, I may be overthinking things and just need more time with the rod and its current WF5F line. I've had it out three times in the past week, and I am getting the feel for casting with it. I've even caught fish with it. So I'll leave the current line on it and just try to be more in tune with its characteristics.

I appreciate all the responses. Who knows, maybe I will play around with a different line in the future and see how that goes.

Thanks folks!

If I’m not wrong a weight forward line is slightly overweight anyway

 

[krayfish2]

Update to my original question. As some of you have pointed out, I may be overthinking things and just need more time with the rod and its current WF5F line. I've had it out three times in the past week, and I am getting the feel for casting with it. I've even caught fish with it. So I'll leave the current line on it and just try to be more in tune with its characteristics.

I appreciate all the responses. Who knows, maybe I will play around with a different line in the future and see how that goes.

Thanks folks!

Might just end up being your favorite 😉

 

[Bamboozle]

If I’m not wrong a weight forward line is slightly overweight anyway

Not all WF's are "overweight."

Cortland, Sci Angler, Rio and 406 all offer "true to weight" WF lines although the tapers may be slightly different. You just have to check the specs.

 

[Tash63]

I don't own a dual weight rod, but a couple of friends have brought them and asked me what weight line they should use with it(maybe not the best thing to do). Since I have both 5 and 6 wgt rods, I tried casting them with both lines. I generally found that the rods cast better with the heavier line. If you know someone who has reel spooled with 6 wgt line, borrow the reel and see how the rod casts with it then make your decision whether to stick with the 5 wgt line or go with the 6 weight line.
For reference all my rods are slow to moderate action. I was once involved in rod building swap where we built fly rod and swapped it with another person in the swap. The blank used was a Rain Shadow blank which turned out to a fast action blank. My swap partner was a guy who built rods for a living(he got the worst of the deal) and the fly rod I received was beautiful. Since I was use to slow/moderate action rods, I could not get a decent cast with the rod. I got so frustrated with it I eventually put up for sale on consignment at my local fly shop.

If by dual-weight rod, you mean one rod that can cast two different line weights well, then EVERY rod is a dual-weight rod Or even a triple-weight rod.

If you underline a rod, it can handle more of the length of the lighter line in the air. This is especially beneficial if you use a double-taper fly line so that you’re not trying to cast with part of the shooting line in the air. I’m personally a fan of DT fly lines on powerful rods because you can manage the line better in the air and on the water… allowing you to mend and roll cast at greater distances than you can with a WF line (the shooting line just can‘t turn over the head of a WF line) and allowing a more precise delivery at longer distances than you can while shooting a WF line. Granted, these are all “Big Water” benefits, and I used these techniques on big western waters.

If you overline a rod, then it will handle better on short casts in smaller water. I primarily see this as a benefit for an angler who only has one rod to fish both big and small water. If one has multiple rods in the quiver, then I think its better to go with a purpose built small water rod with a lighter line for softer presentations.

If the dual weight rods have different tips or butts or extra intermediate sections, then that’s a very different story.

 

[Tash63]

It's not just about speed, it's about distance as well. Do you plan to bomb out casts on big water? Or fish smaller streams in close?

A rod may say it's rated for a line weight. Think about that, it's a true statement. Weight as in ounces, not a rating. But 40 feet of line weighs more than 20 feet of line does. So the rod is designed for a weight of line, or a load, not a line rating... The old standard is that the rod should be rated for the weight of 30 feet of fly line off the tip of the rod (not including leader). And the weight of the line should conform to AFFTA standards. But both rod and line manufacturers have really deviated. It's the wild wild west out there now.

i.e. a rod rated a 5 wt, means a rod designed for 30 feet of 5 wt line. Or 40 ft of 4 wt line. Or 50 ft of 3 wt line. Or 20 ft of 6 wt line. Or 10 ft of 7 wt line. You get the drift.

And then what happened, is rod manufacturers went faster, faster, faster to win distance casting competitions (i.e. they labeled a 6 wt rod as a 5 wt, so when you cast it with 5 wt line, it does better at distance). Line manufacturers followed suit by making the lines heavier and heavier to perform better at regular distances on "today's fast action rods" (they labeled a 6 wt line as a 5 wt to perform better on your 6 wt rod that's labeled as a 5 wt). And then take it another step, the rod manufacturers will start to make 7 wts and call them 5 wts, it's an arms race. Round and round we go. When you go to a store and test cast rods to buy, do you mess with comparing how they cast at 10 ft, or do you bomb them out and see what the rods have at distance? So what do you think the rod guys do? But lines do the opposite, you throw that bad boy on there and go out to the stream, fish at normal distance, and say "this works better than my old line" on my rod. Marketing.

Bottom line? Do NOT be afraid to overline or underline a rod to fit your intended purpose. The ratings are a starting point. That's it. Do not get caught up in this "the rod says 5 wt so I have to put on a line that says 5 wt too." Another manufacturer could call that rod anywhere between a 3 wt and a 7 wt. lol. And the line that says 5 wt could be anywhere between about a 4 wt and an 8 wt as well!

Want to slow down a rod and make it perform better at close range? Go up a line weight or two. Want to speed up a rod and make it perform better at distance? Go down a line weight or two. Understand that to get better performance at distance, you sacrifice some at close range, and vise versa.

I run as much as 3 line weights off on some of my rods. And I vary which line I put on em too, depending on the water I'm fishing that day. That's what multiple reels to rotate around multiple rods are for.

Same idea I had, but better stated!

 

[pcray1231]

If by dual-weight rod, you mean one rod that can cast two different line weights well, then EVERY rod is a dual-weight rod Or even a triple-weight rod.

Agreed. But I think he means one rated as such by the manufacturer. So on the blank it doesn't say 4wt or 5wt, but rather it says 4/5wt.

But my whole point earlier was to take what is written on that blank with a grain of salt and figure out what works best for you on the water you intend to fish it on, which may be even 2 or 3 wts away from what that blank says. So we're in agreement there.

 

[Bamboozle]

If by dual-weight rod, you mean one rod that can cast two different line weights well, then EVERY rod is a dual-weight rod Or even a triple-weight rod...

As suggested by Pcray, I THINK when folks talk about "dual-weight" rods they are most often referring to what I call a "slash rod" meaning a rod with two separate "suggested" line sizes written on the rod blank.

But as you said, all rods regardless of the material, their "action" or what is written on the blank will handle multiple lines sizes and to confuse the issue even more, will handle multiple sizes and lines that are NOT at the AFTMA target for that/those sizes.

However whether the user LIKES how they respond with a lighter or heavier line is the bigger question...

I have always referred to "slash rods" as rods that don't know what they want to be, three bears rods or afterthought rods.

I suspect many if not all were designed to be "ideally"suited for a particular line size and when the designer/builder finished rolling or planing the blank and built one up, they discovered there really wasn't a sweet spot, so two or more line size suggestions are written on the blank.

Fortunately for me, I am happy with all but two of my rods using the suggested line size in all fishing circumstances. I don't need to do the over-lining or under-lining thing.

Coincidentally the only two rods I don't like as much are the two "slash rods" I own. One is fiberglass and the other bamboo. Regardless of what line size I try on these sticks and that includes half sized lines, they just don't seem to respond at all casting distances like my other rods.

For that reason they are the ONLY slash rods I will ever own.

 

[JoeE]

When I was starting to Make Bamboo Rods I called Walton Powell. I got his phone number from God knows where but his wife answered the phone and I asked if Mr. Powell was home, she said yes in a very nice voice ask why and I told her, i was just starting to Make Bamboo Rods and I had a question. She said he was taking a nap but if I would hold on she will get him. I said, I can call back latter and she said no he love that stuff and he needs to get up anyway. I know it was well over 2 hours we talked on the phone, I listened and one of the topics he got on was line weights and he is a 1 up and 2 down from the designed taper depending on what you want to do with it and how it feels to you and nobody else. But that conversation was one of the most enjoyable ones I have ever had. Joe E

 

[Bamboozle]

That's a cool story!!

I met Press Powell and chatted with him a few times. He was a nice guy too.

 

[krayfish2]

Rather than focus on the number that's in front of DT or WF, look at the grain weight for the first 30' of line. It's on 99.9% of the manufacturer's websites or packaging.

If you find that you like the feel of the rod with a 146 grain line, you now know what to start looking for. You might find a really front loaded 3wt taper that is close to 146 or a longer / fine tapered 6wt that is 147 grains.

Once you know the grain weight you are looking for, you can then decide what taper works best for the fishing style you'll be doing. Do you want a more aggressive taper to assist in turning bigger flies over, roll casting nymph rig / streamers or for shooting line? Maybe a less aggressive taper provides a more gentle presentation or a double taper does better at mending / roll casting and can last you twice as long.

Figure out what grain weight works, figure out how you're going to fish and go from there. You're on the right track. Knowing your grain weight also makes it easier if you ever buy a sinking line because many times they are only listed in grain weights instead of sizes.