Over- or Under-weight line?

[a23fish]

I took my old Sage DS 8'6" 5Wt out today since it has been getting ignored & dusty lately. The majority of my fly fishing for the past year or so has been with my beginner Orvis Encounter 9' 5Wt. rod, and I'm getting conditioned to casting that. Conditioned, mind you, not good. But used to it nonetheless.

So the old Sage was a bit of a wake up call. It casts much differently. Slower, softer action. I sometimes found myself beginning my forward cast before the back cast had finished loading. A case of letting my mental timing overriding my physical feel of the rod flex.

Which got me to thinking. Although the rod is labelled 5/6 Wt., since it is slower & softer would it actually be better if I dropped down to a 4Wt. line? Or go up to a 6Wt.? Or am I overthinking this issue and simply need to remember it casts differently and use it more with the 5Wt. line?

 

[krayfish2]

If I'm not mistaken, there were two "models" in the DS. They were released at different times and had different actions even though they were both called discovery series. I think it's a good thing if you picked up the sage, noticed it was very different and knew you had to adjust. It's teaching you to feel the rod load where a lot of modern designs don't afford you that opportunity. Practice with it, learn to love it and take in what it's teaching you. Really good casters can pick up a super slow rod and then a super fast rod .... within 3-4 casts, they adjust timing and cadence to make the rod work.

"Should I use 4, 5 or 6 weight line?" Well, what are you trying to do? 4 weight Rio gold is close to standard while a Rio grande or SA MPX is like a 4.5 - 4.6 weight. You would probably experience 2 different results when casting.

Do you want the rod to feel faster with a little less flex? Would you like to see it slower with a deeper flex? Are you looking to use it at 15' - 30' or 25' - 50'? Dries, nymphs or multiple purpose? I know what you mean because I have a couple old sage rods. One feels like a buggy whip and the other one feels like a piece of rebar.

 

[JerryC]

I don't own a dual weight rod, but a couple of friends have brought them and asked me what weight line they should use with it(maybe not the best thing to do). Since I have both 5 and 6 wgt rods, I tried casting them with both lines. I generally found that the rods cast better with the heavier line. If you know someone who has reel spooled with 6 wgt line, borrow the reel and see how the rod casts with it then make your decision whether to stick with the 5 wgt line or go with the 6 weight line.
For reference all my rods are slow to moderate action. I was once involved in rod building swap where we built fly rod and swapped it with another person in the swap. The blank used was a Rain Shadow blank which turned out to a fast action blank. My swap partner was a guy who built rods for a living(he got the worst of the deal) and the fly rod I received was beautiful. Since I was use to slow/moderate action rods, I could not get a decent cast with the rod. I got so frustrated with it I eventually put up for sale on consignment at my local fly shop.

 

[troutbert]

I took my old Sage DS 8'6" 5Wt out today since it has been getting ignored & dusty lately. The majority of my fly fishing for the past year or so has been with my beginner Orvis Encounter 9' 5Wt. rod, and I'm getting conditioned to casting that. Conditioned, mind you, not good. But used to it nonetheless.

So the old Sage was a bit of a wake up call. It casts much differently. Slower, softer action. I sometimes found myself beginning my forward cast before the back cast had finished loading. A case of letting my mental timing overriding my physical feel of the rod flex.

Which got me to thinking. Although the rod is labelled 5/6 Wt., since it is slower & softer would it actually be better if I dropped down to a 4Wt. line? Or go up to a 6Wt.? Or am I overthinking this issue and simply need to remember it casts differently and use it more with the 5Wt. line?

If you put a 6 wt line on, it will feel even slower, because the additional weight will bend the rod more.

A 4 wt line should make if feel like a faster rod. But whether it will cast with a nice feel or not, you won't know until you try it. It will be an interesting experiment.

I've wondered about trying a lighter line on a slow fly rod, since I prefer medium-fast action to slow action fly rods, but I just never got around to it.

Let us know about your results.

Regarding over-lining fly rods, I've never owned a rod that I thought was too fast, so I've never over-lined one.

I have cast a few rods though that I thought were way too "fast", i.e. stiff. I've just never BOUGHT one of those rods. A friend of mine bought a high end rod designated as a 4 wt, and it was way stiff with a 4 wt. line. He put a 5 wt line on it and I thought it cast nice, and he liked it also.

 

[Swattie87]

In the words of Captain Jack Sparrow, line weight ratings are guidelines more so than rules.

I routinely overline my Brookie rods when I’m casting at short distances all day.

I also underline my 8’6 5wt Redington CT (a fairly slow rod to start with by graphite standards) with 4 wt line during Sulphur season. Makes bombing long casts on Penns or the Little J a little easier.

Mess around with some different weight lines and use what gives you the results/feel you’re desiring. Keeping in mind that different lines labeled as the same weight from different manufacturers can vary in weight by a full line size or more.

 

[BrookieChaser]

I've not known Sage to designate two rod weights for a given rod, but maybe they did. I've never overlined my ds series rods but I have underlined both a 4wt and an 8wt and it sped them up.
Try Cortland lines. They seem true to weight and I believe they even make a double taper line. My 580 ds2 likes a dt 5wt line.
It would be nice to have a place to try different lines on a rod before buying them, like testing fly rods.

Edit: I should've led with this. The 5wt designation is just referring to the grain weight of the first 30' of line. That designation could have changed since that rod was manufactured. It seems to be a sliding scale based on rod and line manufacturer. Also where that weight is, being a short or long head, will effect the feedback you get from the rod at certain distances.

 

[redietz]

"Should I use 4, 5 or 6 weight line?" Well, what are you trying to do? 4 weight Rio gold is close to standard while a Rio grande or SA MPX is like a 4.5 - 4.6 weight.

At this point, a Rio Grande 4 weight is a true 5 weight, an I believe the Gold is 4.5.

 

[Bamboozle]

...I think it's a good thing if you picked up the sage, noticed it was very different and knew you had to adjust. It's teaching you to feel the rod load where a lot of modern designs don't afford you that opportunity. Practice with it, learn to love it and take in what it's teaching you. Really good casters can pick up a super slow rod and then a super fast rod .... within 3-4 casts, they adjust timing and cadence to make the rod work...

This ^^^^^

 

[sandflyx]

In the words of Captain Jack Sparrow, line weight ratings are guidelines more so than rules.

I routinely overline my Brookie rods when I’m casting at short distances all day.

I also underline my 8’6 5wt Redington CT (a fairly slow rod to start with by graphite standards) with 4 wt line during Sulphur season. Makes bombing long casts on Penns or the Little J a little easier.

Mess around with some different weight lines and use what gives you the results/feel you’re desiring. Keeping in mind that different lines labeled as the same weight from different manufacturers can vary in weight by a full line size or more.

I don't overline but cut back on the tip end of line so it loads faster. brookies dont mind.

 

[pcray1231]

It's not just about speed, it's about distance as well. Do you plan to bomb out casts on big water? Or fish smaller streams in close?

A rod may say it's rated for a line weight. Think about that, it's a true statement. Weight as in ounces, not a rating. But 40 feet of line weighs more than 20 feet of line does. So the rod is designed for a weight of line, or a load, not a line rating... The old standard is that the rod should be rated for the weight of 30 feet of fly line off the tip of the rod (not including leader). And the weight of the line should conform to AFFTA standards. But both rod and line manufacturers have really deviated. It's the wild wild west out there now.

i.e. a rod rated a 5 wt, means a rod designed for 30 feet of 5 wt line. Or 40 ft of 4 wt line. Or 50 ft of 3 wt line. Or 20 ft of 6 wt line. Or 10 ft of 7 wt line. You get the drift.

And then what happened, is rod manufacturers went faster, faster, faster to win distance casting competitions (i.e. they labeled a 6 wt rod as a 5 wt, so when you cast it with 5 wt line, it does better at distance). Line manufacturers followed suit by making the lines heavier and heavier to perform better at regular distances on "today's fast action rods" (they labeled a 6 wt line as a 5 wt to perform better on your 6 wt rod that's labeled as a 5 wt). And then take it another step, the rod manufacturers will start to make 7 wts and call them 5 wts, it's an arms race. Round and round we go. When you go to a store and test cast rods to buy, do you mess with comparing how they cast at 10 ft, or do you bomb them out and see what the rods have at distance? So what do you think the rod guys do? But lines do the opposite, you throw that bad boy on there and go out to the stream, fish at normal distance, and say "this works better than my old line" on my rod. Marketing.

Bottom line? Do NOT be afraid to overline or underline a rod to fit your intended purpose. The ratings are a starting point. That's it. Do not get caught up in this "the rod says 5 wt so I have to put on a line that says 5 wt too." Another manufacturer could call that rod anywhere between a 3 wt and a 7 wt. lol. And the line that says 5 wt could be anywhere between about a 4 wt and an 8 wt as well!

Want to slow down a rod and make it perform better at close range? Go up a line weight or two. Want to speed up a rod and make it perform better at distance? Go down a line weight or two. Understand that to get better performance at distance, you sacrifice some at close range, and vise versa.

I run as much as 3 line weights off on some of my rods. And I vary which line I put on em too, depending on the water I'm fishing that day. That's what multiple reels to rotate around multiple rods are for.

 

[krayfish2]

At this point, a Rio Grande 4 weight is a true 5 weight, an I believe the Gold is 4.5.

I've called manufacturer several times over the years. Gold is a long belly/ true to weight line. It's typically in the upper half of acceptable grain weight for a specific size. Example:. AFFTA 5wt range is 134 - 146 grains. The standard for 6wt is 152 - 168. I don't know who started the misconception that Rio gold was way overweight but it really isn't.

 

[pcray1231]

So a Rio Gold 5 wt is a 5.5 wt. A Rio Grande 5 wt is a dead on 6 wt.

 

[falcon]

Gold is a 1/3wt over. Example 5wt Gold is 146gr still within range of a standard 5wt.

 

[Tigereye]

That is one great post.

 

[Tigereye]

It's not just about speed, it's about distance as well. Do you plan to bomb out casts on big water? Or fish smaller streams in close?

A rod may say it's rated for a line weight. Think about that, it's a true statement. Weight as in ounces, not a rating. But 40 feet of line weighs more than 20 feet of line does. So the rod is designed for a weight of line, or a load, not a line rating... The old standard is that the rod should be rated for the weight of 30 feet of fly line off the tip of the rod (not including leader). And the weight of the line should conform to AFFTA standards. But both rod and line manufacturers have really deviated. It's the wild wild west out there now.

i.e. a rod rated a 5 wt, means a rod designed for 30 feet of 5 wt line. Or 40 ft of 4 wt line. Or 50 ft of 3 wt line. Or 20 ft of 6 wt line. Or 10 ft of 7 wt line. You get the drift.

And then what happened, is rod manufacturers went faster, faster, faster to win distance casting competitions (i.e. they labeled a 6 wt rod as a 5 wt), line manufacturers followed suit by making the lines heavier and heavier to perform better at regular distances on "today's fast action rods" (labeled a 6 wt line as a 5 wt). And then take it another step, the rod manufacturers will start to make 7 wts and call them 5 wts, it's an arms race. Round and round we go. When you go to a store and test cast a rod, do you mess with casting 10 ft away, or do you bomb it out and see what the rod has? So what do you think the rod guys do? But lines do the opposite, you throw that bad boy on there and go out to the stream, fish normally, and say "this works better than my old line". Marketing.

Bottom line? Do NOT be afraid to overline or underline a rod to fit your intended purpose. The ratings are a starting point. That's it. Do not get caught up in this "the rod says 5 wt so I have to put on a line that says 5 wt too." Another manufacturer could call that rod anywhere between a 3 wt and a 7 wt. lol. And the line that says 5 wt could be anywhere between about a 4 wt and an 8 wt as well!

Want to slow down a rod and make it perform better at close range? Go up a line weight or two. Want to speed up a rod and make it perform better at distance? Go down a line weight or two. Understand that to get better performance at distance, you sacrifice some at close range, and vise versa.

I run as much as 3 line weights off on some of my rods. And I vary which line I put on em too, depending on the water I'm fishing that day. That's what multiple reels to rotate around multiple rods are for.

This one

 

[DomR]

Or you can KISS it. Find a line that works on your chosen rod the way you want it to for the chosen fishing situation. Hell it could be way different lines for the same rod depending upon the fishing situation (i.e. tight brushy streams vs. wider open rivers). Don't stress so much over the marked line weight for both rods or lines. Find combos that work for you and your casting style.

 

[a23fish]

Folks, Thanks to all for your responses. I had the Sage out again today - can't get used to it if you don't use it - and I discovered it seemed to throw dry flies better than weighted nymphs under a yarn indicator. I'm not sure why, but that was my impression. Or maybe is was because I was throwing drys at the end of the session and was simply getting better with it, but I'm not sure.

Regardless, it does seem much whippier than my Orvis Encounter 9' 5 wt. All of my fly fishing - with either rod - is done on mid- to small streams or a few lakes at fairly close distances. Basically the creeks might be 30' to 50' wide, although some are wider. I never checked my average casting distance, but I would be surprised if it went much beyond 40 feet, and many in the 20-40 foot range.

If I understand the many detailed responses above, if I want to make it feel a bit faster/stiffer, i.e., more in line with my Orvis rod, I should go down one line weight and put on a 4 Wt. line. I think that won't affect the rod action, especially if I have a fish on, but should make it feel a little less whippy since it isn't trying to load as much weight on the back & forward cast.

I would like to experiment with different lines to see what is best suited to the rod and my casting style, but with fly lines going for $80-$120 I realistically can't go buy two or more new fly lines to research it. Hopefully I'll run into one of my fellow fly fishing club members that has a 4 or 6 Wt. line on a reel I can borrow. I'll update my efforts & results when I can.

For the record, my old Sage rod is labelled Sage Graphite 586 DS, #5-6 Line 8'6" 3 1/8 oz. It is a gray rod that has visible ribbing around the blank, plain black wraps, black down locking aluminum reel seat. And 2 piece. Introduced in 1986.

Once again, thanks to all for your responses.

 

[BrookieChaser]

There I learned something today. That "#5-6 line" is a new one to me.

You're correct, by going to a 4wt line it should speed up (or stiffen (less feel)) that rod. That's assuming a true to weight line.

I don't understand why line manufacturers wouldn't spool their lines on cheap plastic reels (read 3d printed) and supply them to fly shops as demos for anglers to test cast? But I assume the overhead would be too high.

For what it's worth, I find the Cortland 333 classic trout to be good line for the $43 it costs.

 

[PennKev]

I don't understand why line manufacturers wouldn't spool their lines on cheap plastic reels (read 3d printed) and supply them to fly shops as demos for anglers to test cast? But I assume the overhead would be too high.

For what it's worth, I find the Cortland 333 classic trout to be good line for the $43 it costs.

I agree. When premium lines now cost north of $100, test casting should be an option before purchase. The reality is you're lucky if a shop will have a reel loaded with a decent line so that you can test cast a rod, let alone a line of your choosing. More often it is the same line that has been used to test cast rods for the last 10 years.

FWIW, a 333 at $43 isn't such a great deal when MRFC and sierra.com frequently unload last year's premium lines at deep discounts. In fact, Sierra has some decent deals right now in that price range.

 

[BrookieChaser]

I agree. When premium lines now cost north of $100, test casting should be an option before purchase. The reality is you're lucky if a shop will have a reel loaded with a decent line so that you can test cast a rod, let alone a line of your choosing. More often it is the same line that has been used to test cast rods for the last 10 years.

FWIW, a 333 at $43 isn't such a great deal when MRFC and sierra.com frequently unload last year's premium lines at deep discounts. In fact, Sierra has some decent deals right now in that price range.

I didn't know about MRFC, and didn't know sierra.com sold fly lines. I need to do more shopping I guess. I appreciate the info!