Nymph with or without Indicator

[troutbert]

There are still guys who still fish live Coffin Flies on Penns Creek with a fly rod.

And some fish live crickets and grasshoppers with a fly rod.

Then there are guys who put on a concoction made of feather and fur to imitate these things.

Bait fishing with a dry fly.

All flyfishing is essentially bait fishing, with an imitation of the bait rather than the actual bait.

 

[Fishidiot]

JeffK wrote:

I have always claimed that there aren't the expert bait fishermen of days past today.

Agree (also agree with T-bert that there are still folks doing it).

Like Afishinado and many of you, I learned to trout fish using bait and my mentors used fly rods to bait fish. I've pondered this and I think a large part of the answer is threefold:

1. When these anglers were young, spin fishing didn't exist or was in its infancy and a fly rod allowed a delicate presentation with a tiny bait that had too little weight to be cast with a bait casting reel.
2. The longer length of fly rods also made them better for presenting fine baits in small streams to picky fish because one could "cane-pole" the presentation (today we'd call it "tenkara") and the length of the rod allowed the angler to keep his line off the water and get a good, drag free drift. Once spin gear became prevalent, the small baits could be cast, but the longer length of the fly rod still worked better on small streams so guys stuck with fly rods.
3. A generation or two ago, more anglers engaged in both bait and fly fishing. In early season, they used bait; later in the spring many switched to flies (or they fished both flies and bait on the same day, depending on conditions). Using the same rod to present your minnow or earthworm made obvious sense if you wanted to switch to flies while on the water. Few FFers today fish bait and associate bait with conventional gear. Conversely, the new generation of bait guys (now known as "traditional anglers" tend not to FF and so stick with spin gear).

Overall, I think it is unfortunate that bait fishers and FFers don't cross pollinate much anymore....A loss for both angles.
(Didn't mean to hijack a thread on indicators)

 

[PennKev]

troutbert wrote:

And they were able to get good drifts, and detect strikes, and not just when fishing a short, tight line, but also when fishing long drifts with a fair bit of line out.

And they probably either:

1) Missed a ton of takes just like if you fished flies in the same way.

or

2) Didn't realize the take until the fish had taken the natural bait deeply.

 

[Maurice]

PennKev wrote:

troutbert wrote:

And they were able to get good drifts, and detect strikes, and not just when fishing a short, tight line, but also when fishing long drifts with a fair bit of line out.

And they probably either:

1) Missed a ton of takes just like if you fished flies in the same way.

or

2) Didn't realize the take until the fish had taken the natural bait deeply.

Kev I don't think bait fishers "miss a lot of takes" because the bait being real causes most if not all takes to be taken deeply.

Thats precisely why bait fishing has a higher mortality rate than fly and lure fishing.

 

[PennKev]

I'm so skilled I can wake up in the middle of the night, walk into the bathroom, take a ****, and hit my mark without turning the lights on.

It works better when I turn the lights on.

 

[PennKev]

Maurice wrote:

Kev I don't think bait fishers "miss a lot of takes" because the bait being real causes most if not all takes to be taken deeply.

Thats precisely why bait fishing has a higher mortality rate than fly and lure fishing.

We're in agreement here. What i was trying to point out is that their success is helped by the bait itself and not by any super-skillful fishing technique. Without taste and feel advantages of natural bait, they would always face the same challenges of fishing with an artificial fly.

I was also trying to point out that a degree of success doesn't necessarily show the effectiveness of a technique. I could fish with an old pop can tab and catch fish, but a real spoon or spinner is probably a better choice.

 

[Maurice]

PennKev wrote:
I'm so skilled I can wake up in the middle of the night, walk into the bathroom, take a ****, and hit my mark without turning the lights on.

It works better when I turn the lights on.

Um, ah...I sit own for those...I mean why stand in that groggy state when there is a perfectly good chair right in front of you?

So remind me if we ever room together about your skills or lack thereof when zeroing in on the steering wheel of my porcelain bus.

 

[krayfish2]

JeffK,

There are still some highly skilled bait / spin fishers. Not many but they do still exist.

I remember a guy I'd always see between Paradise and Bellefonte. I think he was in PA Angler several times. He fishe Swiss Swing spinners up stream on a spinning rod and absolutely murdered them. I'm sure some of the guys that fished that section 80's - early 90's know who I'm talking about.

I also ran into a dude on the WB, maybe 10-15 yrs ago. 7' ultralight spin rod with minnows. I was on the waterfirst light looking for leftover drake spinners when this guy walked in and put on an exhibition. I watched this guy catch / release 15-20 fish in an hour or so. Most fish were 18" or bigger and did see him struggling to land one that had to be a solid 5 pounds. My dad isn't much of a fisher but I took him up the following week with minnows and a small float. He fished for 2 days without hooking up. Something to be said for skill I suppose.

 

[djs12354]

SBecker wrote:

djs12354 wrote:
Risking the jokes, I'll chime in with going both ways.

Deeper, quicker water, I use an indicator of some type (Thingamabobber, Stimmie, or Elk Hair Caddis)

D,
If you are close enough to "highstick" this type a water do it. The water under the fast top level will be slower. If you are using a suspension device it is more then likely pulling your flies quickly through. Where if you "highstick" or whatever you want to call it you will have less drag on your flies and you can slow down your drift. Imo

Shane,

I see what you mean and will have to put more effort into the "high-sticking" on the deeper waters. Part of the problem is not thinking enough before starting to work the water. Could easily "high-stick" in close and move to an indicator as I work further out in the river.

Need to buy you a few beers next time you are up this way and have you tune me up. Maybe you could count it as student teaching hours, subset Kinder-garden.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[afishinado]

troutbert wrote:

afishinado wrote:

LOL...the best lessons I learned about fishing sunken fly was back from my bait fishing days :-o. Fish a wet or nymph like a waxworm or crawler and voila!......the fish will come.

Did you use an indicator when fishing bait? A lot of the old school guys fished bait with fly rods (some still do), and I've never seen any of those guys use a strike indicator.

And they were able to get good drifts, and detect strikes, and not just when fishing a short, tight line, but also when fishing long drifts with a fair bit of line out.

I never fished bait on a fly rod but became interested in fly-fishing as a new challenge. The same was true with my hunting. I hunted with a bow before ever hunting with a rifle.

I was self-taught as a FFer in the early days and was a decent bait / spin guy at the time. So, not knowing any better, I fished flies the same way I fished bait. I pinched on a shot above my fly, pitched it upstream and bumped the bottom with my fly, while keeping my line tight, to stay in contact with it. The funny thing is, I caught trout right from day one with a fly rod...lots of them.

I found the farther the cast, the more difficult it became to to detect strikes. I didn't use an indy/bobber, my solution was to tie on some hi-vis mono to the end of my leader (hi-vis blue Trilene and later yellow Stren)...the sighter was born (back in the 70's). Also, I even tried spray painting the end of my leader with fluorescent paint and later used some sticky orange foam sign material I found and attached it to the end of my leader.

I still fish much the same way. I now roll on a little strike putty in a couple of spots on the end of my leader above the tippet and use that as my sighter. I also furl my own mono leaders and often use hi-vis mono to furl. I do use indies at times to fish at longer distances, but mostly I tight-line nymph and/or use my sighter to detect strikes a little further out.

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:

I didn't use an indy/bobber, my solution was to tie on some hi-vis mono to the end of my leader (hi-vis blue Trilene and later yellow Stren)...the sighter was born (back in the 70's).

Don Douple was also using this technique way back in the day. Do you know who originated it? Just curious, from a fly fishing history perspective.

 

[afishinado]

troutbert wrote:

afishinado wrote:

I didn't use an indy/bobber, my solution was to tie on some hi-vis mono to the end of my leader (hi-vis blue Trilene and later yellow Stren)...the sighter was born (back in the 70's).

Don Douple was also using this technique way back in the day. Do you know who originated it? Just curious, from a fly fishing history perspective.

I did!!! Lol....it's amazing how many times people come up with the same idea independent of each other. I used hi-vis line on my leader sometime in the early 70's as a young teen. At the time, I never heard of Don Douple or knew much about what all the "experts" were doing. Saw a problem/opportunity...found a solution.

 

[JeffK]

I'm interested in antigue tackle and one 100+ year old technigue was to whip colored bands of silk on the line as indicators. Over rough bottom one could "plumb" the depths with a heavy weight and mark the depths by the colored bands. Then one could fish right near the bottom by high sticking with bait and minding your markers. I first saw this at a broken dam site where the dam debris kept bottom bouncers constantly snagged. But holding the bait off the bottom this way found the pockets without hanging up - and caught lots of fish. I've seen late 19th lines marked the same way, so I am assuming they did the same thing.

Traditional smelt fishers in the tidewaters of New England use a cane pole with a subtle yarn indicator since smelt bite so light. I think they have been doing that "forever". I think the old timers were very creative and a lot of indicator tricks have very old roots. There were always "fishheads" who took fishing further than most.

 

[FarmerDave]

Wow a thread on strike indicators reaching 8 pages? Who'd a thunk it.

I didn't like using a bobber when bait angling either, but sometimes you had to do what you had to do.