No more quiet times in parts of Potter County

[BradFromPotter]

troutbert wrote:
Traditional recreation on public forest lands included things like hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, birding, photography, picking berries and ramps etc.

It did not include ATVs.

People started buying ATVs but without owning land to use them on. And they've been pressuring the resource land agencies to provide places for them to ride on the public resource lands.

What they should do is just say "No." Because it's a use that is incompatible with managing the natural resources. The PGC does say "No."

The DCNR and ANF has caved in. The field people with these agencies don't like it.

It shows the power of an organized, relentless special interest group.

You nailed it!

 

[BradFromPotter]

The_Sasquatch wrote:

BradFromPotter wrote:

Susquehanna wrote:
Thinking about why this bothers me I realize just how ridiculous this thread is and it is a good representative of what is plaguing this country. I grew up in the Appalachia woods of PA. My family is small and we pinched pennies anywhere we could. My father was a hard-working man who did the best he could for his family. We couldn't afford good shoes much less an ATV. My mother and father made sure their children would be better off than they were and sent us off to college. Here I guess is where I graduated from "hillbilly" to "hilljack", to you "flatlander yuppies".

It isn't that people native to the Appalachia range don't own ATV's, some do but many don't. We just don't have the advantage of great paying jobs like those in the outlying counties from the forests.

It burns me a bit though reading this thread after having dealt with the stereotypes from "city folk" my whole life. Especially since many buy up cabins in my area and use them as weekend retreats to do whatever they please, while maintaining the stereotypes that "hilljacks" dont know any better.

Ask yourself,who is doing the most damage, the locals or the "weekenders"?
“ATV season” traditionally kicks into gear on Memorial Day weekend and continues until late September. Wonder why that is?

I guess the "hilljacks" garage their ATV's they spent a years salary on in the spring, fall and winter :roll:

https://www.endeavornews.com/articles/potter-county-targeted-for-atv-trails/

https://www.pennlive.com/coronavirus/2021/02/coronavirus-fuels-surge-in-atv-and-snowmobile-permits-in-pa.html

As of Feb. 3, Westmoreland County had 13,886 registered ATV/off-road vehicles, the highest amount in the state, the news site reported. Allegheny County was second, with 12,977 registrations.

I believe we all should be working together to fight this but you want to label and divide. That is fine, it relieves many from looking inward at their own impacts, but then nothing changes. That is fine too, but at least be honest about yourselves. It isn't the locals that sparsely populates the area doing the most damage IMO. Why is it said, even in this thread, every weekend someone is getting hurt?
I guess the "hilljacks" don't ride ATV's Mon.- Thursday but just on the weekends.

Better yet just make fun of their spin reels on Ugly Sticks and rubber hip boots while you fish with your 1000 dollar Winston and equally as expensive Simms waders. Just leave the rest of your "yuppie" stereotypes and holier than thou attitude back in Philly or where ever you came from.

Some are sick of hearing it while you talk about being inclusive out of the other side of your mouth.

From what I see most of the atv's here in Potter are not from locals. Although local do have them. The numbers of trailers driving along Rt6 on a Friday night is unreal.

I'd be willing to bet the folks who live IN Potter who have ATV's and side-by-sides actually use them on their own land for farming, etc.

A very good friend who has a side by side lives near Germania. He is not happy about the large groups of riders. He said they are now organizing poker runs with ATV's now. Where they drive from bar to bar.

 

[Susquehanna]

The OP was about ATVs being allowed on additional roads.

But the thread has suffered from a "hilljack hijack."

Funny but not. The chances of you saying that without the veil of internet security would be next to nothing. If you couldn't tell I am about sick of the stereotypes and it wouldnt go over well in person.

Unfortunately you missed one of the main points in my rantings. It isn't the locals. You have nearly 250000 registered ATV's in two counties alone.
If it was just the locals the damage would be minimal. Anyone downplaying by claiming otherwise is likely pulling away opposition, which is very important right now.
The scope of this is quite large and it is going to be a disaster to our wild areas.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

BradFromPotter wrote:


From what I see most of the atv's here in Potter are not from locals. Although local do have them. The numbers of trailers driving along Rt6 on a Friday night is unreal.

you don't have to wait until rt 6 to see them. It is a parade on 180 and 15 coming around Williamsport most Friday afternoon/ evenings as well as Sunday. The funny thing is most are $50k trucks, expensive trailers with multiple machines. Hell some of the modified side by sides are worth well over 30 grand themselves. Its hardly "hilljacker: activities.

Someone also mentioned the shooting of semiauto rifles somewhere that they shouldn't. In my experience around several friend's camps the folks that partake in the obscene amount of random shooting all weekend are almost always from NYC/NJ or Philly.


The only way additional road riding works is with more law enforcement presence and I hope that includes DUI check points. I already have enough close calls with sober folks cruising on dual sport bikes on forestry roads, let alone drunk folks on atvs and side by sides.

 

[JasonC]

So wait, how do you know the random shooters are almost always from NYC or Philly again? Are you checking their IDs? Stop with the rural versus urban rhetoric. Bottom line is there is a real threat to land and water we all love and want to conserve and seems like the problem is only getting worse. And I'm willing to bet non-locals account for the majority of these problems but don't be so naive to think that locals are completely blameless as well. What everyone should focus their efforts on is finding a solution.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

When there are NJ license plates filling a cabin yard, its not hard to figure out where they are from...

It all comes down to respect. Respect others, respect our natural resources and respect yourself and society would be a lot better off. Unfortunately our society is plagued with a lack of respect and being accountable for your own actions.

 

[larkmark]

Susquehanna sez---
"Funny but not. The chances of you saying that without the veil of internet security would be next to nothing. If you couldn't tell I am about sick of the stereotypes and it wouldnt go over well in person."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when people disagree with you you would do what? That sounds like an insular point of view, quick to anger. Kinda like the stereotype you dislike? Come on now Susquehanna. People are just discussing a topic.

 

[larkmark]

troutberts last post is exactly right.

 

[troutbert]

Susquehanna wrote:

The OP was about ATVs being allowed on additional roads.

But the thread has suffered from a "hilljack hijack."

Funny but not. The chances of you saying that without the veil of internet security would be next to nothing. If you couldn't tell I am about sick of the stereotypes and it wouldnt go over well in person.

Unfortunately you missed one of the main points in my rantings. It isn't the locals. You have nearly 250000 registered ATV's in two counties alone.
If it was just the locals the damage would be minimal. Anyone downplaying by claiming otherwise is likely pulling away opposition, which is very important right now.
The scope of this is quite large and it is going to be a disaster to our wild areas.

I was just pointing out that the thread got derailed. The original topic was ATVs being given additional access. Which is a good topic.

But several posts down the thread, people are talking about "hilljacks." Which is not relevant to the original topic, and essentially meaningless name-calling, and as you say, stereo-typing.

I'd like to see conservation groups organize and push back against ATV use on public resource lands.

ATVs are practical work machines for farms and forestry, etc. And if people want to ride them for recreation on private land, that's fine.

But the people who created public forest lands did that for the natural resources conservation, for woods and waters, for wildlife, and for people enjoying nature, not for MOTORSPORTS. That was never the intent.

Here's a point that has not been mentioned. Some of these ATV playgrounds are on old strip mine lands, such as the Bloody Skillet area in Sproul State Forest.

The thinking seems to be that these lands were shredded anyway by strip mining, so what does it matter if they continue to be shredded by ATV use?

And I think even many conservation minded people accept that. But strip mined lands have a great potential to be re-vegetated. I've seen this myself, and was amazed at how vegetation can come back, even on land where the "soil" is mostly rocks, and the landscape totally re-arranged.

But grasses, trees, shrubs come back in, along with grouse, birds, deer, etc. Strip mined land should never be written off.

 

[larkmark]

I will give just one example of why I view this whole issue as a change in culture. Our neighbors here always allowed free entry into their farm fields and woods the entire time I lived here. After the kind and decent father died the next generation immediately posted the property. They also started up with the gunfire and four wheeler riding. Often they are coming on our place (unposted) and on adjoining public areas that are part of a nature preserve, with the machines and I see now where they are riding through a small stream on our place and creating damage. I really do not care where the people live as far as country or city....it is the behavior that matters. Interesting to me that they are the adamant private property people but have zero respect for private or public land. I don't know if laws to limit them will help unless enforced. I am of course in favor of keeping them off all natural areas owned by state etc.

 

[wildtrout2]

larkmark wrote:
I really do not care where the people live as far as country or city....it is the behavior that matters.

Agree.
It's simply about following the law and respecting the land.

 

[JasonC]

I also agree wholeheartedly. It's all about the people and their attitude, morals, and values. The sense of entitlement in people today is unreal.

 

[BradFromPotter]

It will be an up hill battle against ATV use on public lands. In a 55 mile stretch between Mansfield & Coudersport along RT 6 there are 6 ATV dealers! I told my wife maybe we might be able to sell our home in Galeton at a very good price. We have a 1.5 car garage which is only around 100 yards from RT 144. Most homes in Galeton do not have garages. Plus my backyard butts up against the mountain. From what I understand RT 144 will be open the ATV's plus the borough is talking about opening their roads in town. Anyone want to make an offer?

 

[maxima12]

Bradfrompotter., You know my feelings of Galeton, Pa. Wild, nature, the lore, the axe, the knife, the cool whistle of free air!

Do I like what is happening----No. Can I change it----No. Am i willing to fight----Yes! Not hitting or calling names, i fight by trying to do----The right!

Engagement of people--brief encounters---telling the wisdom---sharing the beauty!

My tears have turned to concrete on my face---surely time will change that.

We here are special interest----change the system for what we see is right. Why we did not stick to the most famous ingredient. JUST FISH. ENJOY, HAPPY, TAKE THE FIRST STEP. I am bewildered!

I have seen the most important, the virgin, by foot, Now a road takes you there and you do not ----Get out of the car!


Maxima12

don't worry, brother, it will end faster than it started! The GIFT!

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear troutbert,

Except for the OP Brad, you've been the voice of reason in this thread. I agree with everything you have written.

Public land is different than private land. And when you get down to it private land isn't very different than public land when the activities done on it have a negative impact on surrounding properties and their owners.

In your last post you mentioned the "Bloody Skillet" ATV area with the notion that somehow since they are just trashing strip mined land it's deemed OK? I'm a Schuylkill County kid by birth and many of the coal companies up there have opened up their land for ATV's. I wonder how much of a break they got for not having to reclaim it?

Other people have addressed the main issue in this quite well also. People need to be more respectful of other people and the surroundings. That is the bottom line.

We shall how that works out, but I wouldn't even bet your money, or anyone else's, on a positive outcome.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[jifigz]

Jeesh, well apparently I didn't realize how big the ATV scene is in Potter County and how many people travel in to ride on a consistent basis. Maybe the damage will be substantial......

Just want to clarify one thing. Public land isn't public land, it's government land with which they will ultimately do what they want with. Our opinions may be considered, but in the end I often don't think our opinions mean much. The govt will do what it wants..

 

[larkmark]

Maybe someone can set up a private 4 wheeler park like this one in Florida- They use trucks and ATVs and all sorts of things there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG8F28WlvQU

 

[reds]

Just for the record DCNR didn’t cave. They were not given a choice. The legislature demanded it. I’m pretty sure it was even tied to DCNR budget. This is going to be expanded as Brad pointed out, probably to almost all forestry roads. Also, I believe they are hiring more rangers for what that is worth, whether they spend their time enforcing ATV laws or other things will be seen.

Anyone who doubts the damage from these machines is a fool. Dirt roads are not built to handle the hard turns with knobby tires these machines can make while accelerating. Also, just about every class a stream has a road adjacent to it. That’s where they were built.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Agreed reds. I think the expansion of atv riding opportunities is inevitable. Riding on roads is a worthy compromise as opposed to building new trails. I surely hope more law enforcement presence is in the works for not only illegal offroad riding issues but also for public safety in the forms of curbing reckless driving and dui. Connecting all of the northern tier towns is only going to increase traffic to bars similar to wonter snowmobiling that has wained in popularity due to the lack of good riding conditions some winters. The difference with drunk snowmobile riders is that they typically are not travelling on roads where vehicular traffic is simultaneously occuring.

The potential impacts to water quality are real. The potential human safety concerns are real with and without the influence of alcohol.

Unfortunately the only way to curb the activity in my opinion is if there is a notable increase in severe accidents connected with booze and atvs.

 

[FarmerDave]

What exactly is a hilljack, and should I be offended? Relax, I am not easily offended.

I looked it up. Although I regionally fit the definition of hilljack, I don't quite fit. I am not poor, grew up middle class, and I never sported a mullet. I also never got in a fight over which is better, Coors or Bud. But then, I don't think Coors was available in NWPA back in the day. I do however like regional beer like Straub for health reasons. ;-)

This is all irrelevant due to the fact that people suck, no matter where they reside. Most of them suck some of the time (like when away from home). Some of them suck all of the time. Anyway, if any of you think this is just a hilljack issue, you are wrong and should stay home until you figure it out.

As far as the OP, my knee jerk reaction would be that this is a bad idea, but fortunately I am not very prone to knee jerk reactions. I like to think things out. Part of the reason for this change could be that ATVs have been using these roads for a very long time even though it was illegal. But it was nearly impossible to enforce. If any of you think you could catch me driving an ATV through the ANF with your SUV or pickup, you would be mistaken. Not that I would do this, but lets get real.

Might as well make it legal to entice people to designated areas and free up some resources. The law abiding riders will likely help police these roads by reporting the offenders and thus protect their own interests. Most people these days carry cell phones with cameras. Even if there is no coverage where you are at, you can take a picture or video of the offender and report it later.

I still am not fond of this, but keeping an open mind. I am sure there are plusses and minuses as others have pointed out.

I don't know if this contributes to the discussion or simply stirs the pot. Maybe a little of both. ;-)