My Problem of Hooking Trout

Started a new thread about it...let's discuss there.

Sorry to the OP for the derailment.
 
swattie wrote:

Started a new thread about it...let's discuss there.

Sorry to the OP for the derailment.
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No worries .. Last thing I am is a thread nazi as they are as bad as grammEr :) Nazis. I threw it out there for a laugh but I’m always game to get out with guys that know what they are doing and learning different types of fishing techniques.

Also, tho I haven’t gotten out there, I still have my pickering creek thread bookmarked as well as ur PMs saved. I know the next time I try to fish that creek I will spend 4 hrs fishing instead of driving around looking for access and parking. You’re OK in my book!
 
PPaul .. I posted my interest in the fish and chips thread
 
Paul thank you for your post. I have had a few at VC and have also had outings that have left me flustered. It nice to read that I am not the only one who has had days where the trout were completely different in what they would take and not take. TIPPET aside I think my "natural drift skills" need the most improvement. Thanks to everyone for the helpful advise. I enjoy this leaning process very much. If anyone has specific patterns they really like for Valley I'm am all ears? I've had some success with ants and ICSI (22) midges.
 
wvuandy1 wrote:
Paul thank you for your post. I have had a few at VC and have also had outings that have left me flustered. It nice to read that I am not the only one who has had days where the trout were completely different in what they would take and not take. TIPPET aside I think my "natural drift skills" need the most improvement. Thanks to everyone for the helpful advise. I enjoy this leaning process very much. If anyone has specific patterns they really like for Valley I'm am all ears? I've had some success with ants and ICSI (22) midges.
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Thanks... Yeah, Valley can be fickle at best. Some patterns I've found effective on this stream are caddis emergers (16/18), tan and orange crane flies (size 18) and bwo's (18, 20). This time of the year I'd fish ants (red and black), bettles, crickets and the occassional grasshopper. On the nymph side Har's Ear's have always been effective and the more buggier (and sloppy) they look the better. Pheasant Tails are also sometimes effective - these fished best when nothing to speak of is hatching.

 
Stagger_Lee wrote:
swattie wrote:

Started a new thread about it...let's discuss there.

Sorry to the OP for the derailment.
Click to expand...
No worries .. Last thing I am is a thread nazi as they are as bad as grammEr :) Nazis. I threw it out there for a laugh but I’m always game to get out with guys that know what they are doing and learning different types of fishing techniques.

Also, tho I haven’t gotten out there, I still have my pickering creek thread bookmarked as well as ur PMs saved. I know the next time I try to fish that creek I will spend 4 hrs fishing instead of driving around looking for access and parking. You’re OK in my book!
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Pickering creek. Nice stream. Will have to PM you about a couple areas I've fished on the stream for you to try.
 
Thx that's great feedback. Red ants huh?
Can't wait to try those Crane Flies.
When you Nymph at valley do you typically rig two on? If so do you tie one on the tag end of your double surgeons knot or just the hook shank of the top fly? Does that make sense? Does VC have enough depth to rig two nymphs? I have used a Beatle with a nymph dropped off with some success.
 
Comically enough fox was the more experienced guy I know on valley that uses 9x tippet. I noticed a differance with 7x on valley. I'm sure it was presumed as some of the more experienced guys on this forum have taught me otherwise. I promis I will never fish anything smaller than 7x tippet. That should be the paff motto.
 
wvuandy1 wrote:
Thx that's great feedback. Red ants huh?
Can't wait to try those Crane Flies.
When you Nymph at valley do you typically rig two on? If so do you tie one on the tag end of your double surgeons knot or just the hook shank of the top fly? Does that make sense? Does VC have enough depth to rig two nymphs? I have used a Beatle with a nymph dropped off with some success.
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I've used nymphs both individually and as part of rig, as well as having one drop off a size 10 or 12 stimulator. The stimulator is extremely easy to see especially in choppy water and very bouyant. From time to time I've had fish swipe at it too.

In general I use nymph sizes 12 through 16, sometimes 18, but rarely. Lately I've been using them with the "hot spot", but have yet to try them on Valley.

VC definitely has enough depth for two nymph tandem in most places. In the shallower depths I'd recommend one fly that you can get down and bounce off rocks underneath. Of course that can lead to snags and if you get to many go with a lighter weighted fly.

Hope that helps.
 
Great help... man do I appreciate it.
 
Read this……
Heritage Ed wrote:
No PM's, no texts, this needs to be addressed right here - so everyone can learn from this.

Using 9X tippets is NEVER necessary! Why is Varivas the only company to even sell it?

You agree that the real problem is reducing drag. Why not use something else to help fight drag? A longer length of heavier tippet does exactly that. Using certain casts like a "puddle cast", or "pile cast" does as well. They're actually easy for newbies to execute.

I'm not the only person here that discourages using ultra thin tippets. I didn't come up with these ideas by myself - I learned from some realllllly experienced midge and trico fishermen, over decades of fishing the cursed little buggers.

We'll definitely disagree if you keep promoting the necessity of 9X tippet. IMO, it's not just unnecessary, but it's irresponsible, and disrespectful to the resource.

Yeah, I feel pretty strongly on this subject, and I'd bet the majority of the experienced guys here would as well.
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and this…
Gfen wrote:
I don't worry about offending any of you, so I'll bet he first to say that 9x is dumb. So is 8x. And 10x through 12x is criminal.

7x is mildly silly, but suppose everyone wants to go down to size stupid flies once in awhile, and winky little eyes is about the only excuse you have for 7x. Its an animal with the brain the size of a pea (or smaller, all things considered its VC), and about the only thing that's gonna offput the fish is drag.. If you're having such a problem with that, then either lengthen your leader or position yourself better.

I fish places just like VC all day long, and I've never felt a need to go below 6x. I admit I own a spool of 7x, I've actually owned it for probably 3 years now. Its still half full, even.
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Ridiculously light tippet like 8x…9x!!…10x?!!!(c’mon) is a myth and a gimmick to sell a solution for failure (I really don’t miss Rod one bit – there I said it). Can’t catch those fish?… hit the “Easy Button”...use a lighter tippet.

Dropping down to lighter tippet becomes a crutch for FFers when they should really spend time working on improving their casting and presentation skills.

All light tippets do is unnecessarily cause break-offs and the overplaying of fish. Even it helped catch a few more fish (which it doesn't), what ever happened to sportsmanship?




 
I will make this comment in my defense and then my PAFF posting days are over. I have tried very hard not to ever be judgmental or derogatory it my posts and I thought that would give me the same in return. That has not been the case on this issue which obviously people feel very strongly about. I do not advocate the use of 9X or even 8X tippet. I have used it and may even use it in the future but to use terms like "disrespectful to the resource", "irresponsible" and even "not having sportsmanship" is where I'll draw the line as far as what I will take sitting down. I am none of those things to this sport and people that have fished with me know that very well. I have tried to give back and will continue to do so. I will still be a member of PAFF but I will not post anything going forward. I couldn't understand when we had a big exodus of posters a while back but after this I totally understand their frustration. I will not take any parting shots of my way out and thank everyone who has shared time and experience with me.

Fox
 
Fox,

I don't agree with the attack on you and feel it is unjustified. We are getting all pissed off at a great poster and helper, because he says he has used 9x on Valley Creek? Really? People, step back a moment and look at what you are doing to a great poster. Man, everybody acts like they have never made a mistake. I wouldn't even call it a mistake. The guy used 9x on 4inch wild browns on Valley. It's not like he is using bait!

Afishinado....seriously? Geez guys. This crap is sad.
 
This is f’en insane????

One guy uses whatever ‘X’ and the other doesn’t, whatever that ‘X’ may be. Different opinions is what makes the world turn, especially on things an individual is knowledgeable and passionate abt. On most things, I don’t think any of us newbies take anyone’s opinions as gospel when they differ, especially when they are outside of the basics that most of you agree on. I for one would be extremely bothered if ANY of you stopped posting here, especially Fox and/or HA who hasn’t said he would.

I will speak for myself only but I feel there is a group of us newbies that have basically met/gotten together because of you 2. You have taught us tons abt the sport BUT more importantly have really ingrained in our heads (mine at least) thru words, but more importantly action ... how important it is to pay it forward in the future as we evolve into better fishermen. That is just as important to me as the actual fishing. I’ve also met a ton of new friends which I probably wouldn’t have if you both didn’t put these jams together after the March Instructional Jamboree.

You guys disagree on this issue and will probably disagree in the future, no biggie. I myself listen to you both and even if I tried any of these tippet sizes, or something else someone else may tells me in the future, and it didn’t work for me .. I wouldn’t think of holding a grudge, just go back to what I feel more comfortable with. Gotta say I am just sorry for starting this thread as I never thought it would deteriorate to this. I really hope cooler heads prevail.
 
Winky tippet is a pox on the sport and an unneccessary ego kick, "I caught this on 12x!" It becomes an easy button (well used, very hip with the kids) because it becomes a crutch to allow bad habits to flourish.

This particular subforum was created to guide people into learning fundamentals and basics, and when someone who is respected pops up and says he uses BS equipment to fish it, it should absolutely be stamped out of existence with as much force as neccessary.

Everyone makes mistakes, and some places are vested in pushing a mystique of these things (reference Rod from LLFS). That's fine, rather than having a hissy because you were called on a BS method, you should take this opportunity to learn from it, and at the same time the collection of people who have formed up on you and look to you as an example can learn two things:

One, no one's above learning something new.
Two, you really don't need lame hair thin tippet to fish.

And as for a "great exodus," it has nothing to do with anything of this sort, and everything to do with hotspotting jackholes and irritating human beings. Arguments over BS technique such as 8x or smaller would likely continue wherever people ended up. and very likely in a far more vicious manner.

Oh, and OT. Which has nothing to do with fishing at all.
 
Don't be silly George you're a great dude and I enjoy fishing with you and reading your posts.

Most of us are here to learn or teach. I for one assumed, without being told, that 7x would help me out on creeks like valley. I was right, it did. I don't have anyone to teach me otherwise so that's what I did. What I didn't know, until now was that my problem was most likely that my leader was too short or that presentation wasn't delicate enough.

You're passionate about fly fishing and conservation and fish, I get it, we all are, but lets be civil here. Jeez....

 
Okay, maybe I was a bit impetuous and a lot pissed off when I sent my post this morning about not posting going forward. You’ll just have forgive me though when two highly respected members of this board, one a good fisherman and the other a mod/good fisherman, chose to use terminology about those who use small tippet which caught me totally off guard. Although it was not directed at me, since I was the only one posting on the “for” side of the argument, I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to believe it was meant to be directed at me. As most have said either in this forum or in a PM, we need to just agree to disagree. I’m fine with that. We also need to use civility and that is where I feel the line was crossed. I have never once (intentionally) spoke poorly about either one of those people, nor will I. I have probably agreed with 99% of their posts and will going forward. Both have been nothing but fair with their posts on issues in the past but I guess this issue presses their hot button. They are entitled to respect for their opinions based on their many years in this game. I certainly respect that opinion and I can’t even say I disagree with it, but I took and take offense to the tactics both individuals used to chastise me for my views. All I ask is that I get the same respect, courtesy and right to my opinion as I give you. I take advice from many people, some more than others, and I was advised by someone, whose knowledge and experience should also be given proper consideration. When I told that person of my woes, he advised using 9X tippet with size 30 flies. (No, it was not Rod and I never even met Rod) I tried it and it worked. I readily admit that a better fisherman might have caught those same fish on 7X or even 6X, but 9X worked for me. Maybe the use of that tippet isn’t for you and I respect your reasons why and I’m even going to try longer 7X tippet to catch those same fish. But I do not play fish to exhaustion and never will. Yes flies may break off with 9X, all those to date in bushes not fish, but hell it breaks off with 5X too. I can’t really admit to agree to disagree because I don’t really know if I disagree and I never meant to start this controversy in the first place. I disagreed about its use on one creek in one situation and all hell broke loose. For my part in this, I apologize to all the board members who had to read this drivel and make this pledge to avoid stirring up such crap in the future. Fox
 
Fox - When I made my original post in this thread concerning tippet sizes, I had no idea it was you that paparise was referring to on VC. You jumped in and defended both yourself, and the use of ultra thin tippet.

Keep something in mind - when you organize and gather a group of beginners, and even not so beginners together, you are doing this from a presumed position of authority. These people are looking to you for guidance, and may or may not take what you say as gospel truth.

As an experienced fisherman, you undoubtedly have the skills to hook, play, and land fish quickly - without harm to the fish. You know from experience when a battle is approaching overplaying of the fish. I have faith you'd break off the fish before doing it (significant) harm. Other, less experienced anglers, may not have this skill that was accumulated over decades of fishing. They may not realize they are overplaying fish.

How many times do you read here that fisherman "X" fought a particular fish for 10, 20, even 30 minutes? What do you think is likely to happen to that fish? Yes, people's sense of time tends to get distorted in the heat of battle, but this sends the wrong message to others. Agree?

I think I pointed out (strongly, and deservedly so) quite clearly that the use of ultra thin tippets is unnecessary. There is other, better techniques of reducing drag. These are the things that should be encouraged, rather than using ultra light tippet.

With the low flows, and higher temperatures that are often found this time of year, it is our responsibility to encourage awareness of playing fish as quickly as possible, with as heavy of tippet as possible. Using the techniques I stated in a prior post will allow for effective fishing, and still retain the tools needed to end the battle quickly - especially considering anglers of average, or less than average skills.

The replies by myself, afish, and gfen are not a personal attack. They are simply encouraging using good technique, rather than a technique that may be harmful to fish. They were strongly worded to get this message across loud and clear, because it's important.

Sit back, and look at what you are defending, and the ramifications involved. This isn't a good fight to fight.

Using 8X or 9X (and that 9X is equivalent to other manufacturer's 7X or 8X) on VC by a highly skilled fisherman catching 4" trout isn't the end of the world. But there's larger fish in there, and people could say "If it works on VC, maybe I should use it elsewhere to catch more fish".

To summarize:

Teaching other, typically less experienced fishermen at newbie gatherings carries some responsibility to teach good techniques, and good ethics. You're under a microscope in that position. This responsibility follows you here as well.

People make mistakes. It happens. We're all still learning.
 
H-A, Points all well made and understood. I sat back and thought about it and you are correct. Yes, I lost sight of my responsibilities to the newbies and how what I say or write can be viewed and I need to pay better attention to that. I was not advocating that newbies use such light tippet but I do understnad how it may have come across that way.

I will respectfully agree to disagree that it needed to be done so strongly. I understand your reasoning and I apprecaite it even if I don't 100% agree with it.

Valuable lesson learned.

Can we please have peace now? Fox

 
I certainly don't want to fan the flames of this discussion, but can't keep myself from chiming in, mostly because I saw two gentlemen that have spent time mentoring me and that I have come to call friends spending time being angry with each other.

Forums like this are also known as "Discussion Boards" Which means, hopefully, that various points of view will put forth and talked over.

It would be great if these discussions took place calmly and civilly, but in newsgroups and discussion boards like this things tend to heat up very quickly. People will always have strong opinions on aspects of different ways to fish....Look at how quickly you can stir things up just by tossing out the word "Thingamabobber" or the slightly more acceptable "Strike Indicator". Consider how some members look down on "stockies" while newbies like me are glad they are out their to give us something we can catch while starting on our journey, learning this sport.

One great advantage of posting on a forum, is that you have time to look over your post before you hit the "Submit" button. Take a moment to look at what you have typed and consider editing to soften the potential sting of your words.

The key to the whole thing is that we are all here, hopefully, to learn from and share with each other. To discuss the pros and cons of differing methods. It is much easier to accomplish that by being civil with each other.

 
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