More posted signs on Penns Creek!!

So these guys buy land along one of the most popular trout streams in the state and then are upset because they see a lot of fishermen and guides?

Can't find a spot to park during the Green Drakes....
That might be the worst time to fish the creek. Although even then you can find a place to fish if you are willing to walk.
If you have a camp there you will find times to have plenty of solitude on that stream.
 
Make all of Penns FFO maybe that would solve part of the problem. The fly shop should talk to the posters and work something out.
Just my thoughts
 
LouM wrote:
Make all of Penns FFO maybe that would solve part of the problem. The fly shop should talk to the posters and work something out.
Just my thoughts

I would have to disagree with you. I know the landowners, as I stated earlier in the post, and at least one likes to bait fish, as well as FF, and he enjoys having a trout for dinner every now and again. I'm told he's not the only landowner like that. Anyway, a few years back the FC talked about making that stretch C&R and landowners were up in arms and threatened to post then. That's why it's now a slot limit stretch. Personally I think several landowners (1 definitely) simply were looking for a reason to post and when the new guys got pissed, they simply saw an opportunity.

The interesting tidbit in all of this, I'm told is that ownership maps show the cabin owners own the land up to the gravel road but another party owns the land from the road down to the water and there's question as to whether they could ever legally post the streamside. One owner has posted his prperty down to the stream but has only chased people but never called the police for fear of getting sued for false arrest because of a fear that he doesn't really own that side of the road. Once again, I add the disclaimer that this is what I've been told by locals and have no proof that what they've told me is correct although with recent events I can see that becoming a big issue that hopefully the FC will get in on.

Gonna be an interesting spring up there!
 
If the rumors are true that the fly shop pissed off the landowners, the fly shop better get their #censor# over to the landowners and have a little talk. I know this comment is going to **** off some people, but I don't care. A lot of guides I run into are complete a-holes. They act like they own the creek and it is an inconvenience to them that I am even there. Not all guides, but enough. Maybe some of the guides showed that attitude towards the landowners not knowing they were the landowners. I know if someone treated me without respect, I would tell them to access the creek somewhere else.
 
So these guys buy land along one of the most popular trout streams in the state and then are upset because they see a lot of fishermen and guides?

Can't find a spot to park during the Green Drakes....
That might be the worst time to fish the creek. Although even then you can find a place to fish if you are willing to walk.
If you have a camp there you will find times to have plenty of solitude on that stream.

So if you owned that property and went to use it and couldn't get access onto your property, you'd be cool with that and just come back later? Seriously?
 
If the rumors are true that the fly shop pissed off the landowners, the fly shop better get their #censor# over to the landowners and have a little talk. I know this comment is going to **** off some people, but I don't care. A lot of guides I run into are complete a-holes. They act like they own the creek and it is an inconvenience to them that I am even there. Not all guides, but enough. Maybe some of the guides showed that attitude towards the landowners not knowing they were the landowners. I know if someone treated me without respect, I would tell them to access the creek somewhere else.

Amen.

Unfortunately if all this posting is true, welcome LJ part 2
 
Hey Tomtrout- WTF?Who was denying access to their property? It just said they couldn't find a place to park. They can put up a NO Parking sign if they own the property.

I know... let's turn this thread into a debate about private property rights.... And stream access laws....Like that hasn't been done on here a million times.

Hope you have the $ to buy your own little piece of paradise after every bit of decent water is posted.
 
Who is going to pay for the fight? This is different than the Little J issue. In that case, there was a lawsuit involving Spruce Creek Outfitters against Spring Ridge Club for illegally stifling their business.

Lotta people pay guides to fish Penns, lotta people come from all over to fish Penns, lotta people eat food in the area too.

Never underestimate to American publics ability to raise funds for a cause.

GoFundMe ? ;-)
 
We are heading up to camp in Rebersberg next Friday and Saturday and we are social members of the Millheim Fire Company. We'll stop for beers after fishing and I'll try to get some more local scuttlebutt but my fear is that this is not going to be fixed quickly.

I'm also hearing that the parking area by the walking bridge is not yet posted but the other landowners are apparently working on getting them to post. I know the guy is quite nice but gets really upset when people park where they block his access to and from his property. Then they give him grief when he asks them to pull up or park in a different spot. I guess 2015 will be the year of finding new favorite spots.
 
Hey Tomtrout- WTF?Who was denying access to their property? It just said they couldn't find a place to park. They can put up a NO Parking sign if they own the property.

I know... let's turn this thread into a debate about private property rights.... And stream access laws....Like that hasn't been done on here a million times.

Hope you have the $ to buy your own little piece of paradise after every bit of decent water is posted.

Sorry, I just found your remarks a bit flippant. I know I'd be pretty pissed if I bought a prime piece of land and then couldn't even park on my own property in order to do the one thing I bought the property for in the first place. To say that they can just come back later is b.s., I'd probably be posting it too if I were in their shoes.

But if you're cool with that scenario, good on ya, to each his own.
 
IMO, the Fish Commission should look into buying 1ish acre from someone and making a parking access point. That'd clean up the parking issue, anyway.

The parking situation there is terrible and I have witnessed people in that last lot blocking access to the drive for the one camp/residence. The "proper" thing to do is go after the idiots who park like that. But I doubt it'd solve the problem as this place attracts fishermen from such a wide area that there are always a fresh supply of idiots. And enough water can be accessed from that point that at high demand times, there's simply a LOT of people who want to park there and not enough places to do it, so they're gonna push the limits.

Just an ugly situation that's bound to end pretty badly for everyone involved. Ugh.

Keep us updated Fox.

In the meantime, think I'll just stick to accessing everything from the Poe end. For anyone coming from the South or west, it's actually closer, or at least, not any further.
 
In the meantime, think I'll just stick to accessing everything from the Poe end.

Yep, or even park up closer to or in Coburn and walk in, it's really not that far, 1.4 mile from downtown according to Google Maps.
 
Pat, my worry is that this will just cause more parking issues upstream on Tunnel Road as you get closer to Coburn. Thereby causing more people (like the guy that owns the property at the concrete bridge) to post their property. I know one of the landowners down past the parking area belongs to the MFC and I hope to see him and get his take on things. I know enough people up there that I'm hoping to get parking access but stream access may be a bigger problem since it is apparently a very hot issue right now. My guess is that they waited until closer to spring to post so as not to give enough time to get it resolved before this spring thereby giving them at least this year's spring hatches to themselves.

I sent an email yesterday to Jonas to see what he's hearing but have yet to get a response back.
 
tomitrout wrote:
Hey Tomtrout- WTF?Who was denying access to their property? It just said they couldn't find a place to park. They can put up a NO Parking sign if they own the property.

I know... let's turn this thread into a debate about private property rights.... And stream access laws....Like that hasn't been done on here a million times.

Hope you have the $ to buy your own little piece of paradise after every bit of decent water is posted.

Sorry, I just found your remarks a bit flippant. I know I'd be pretty pissed if I bought a prime piece of land and then couldn't even park on my own property in order to do the one thing I bought the property for in the first place. To say that they can just come back later is b.s., I'd probably be posting it too if I were in their shoes.

But if you're cool with that scenario, good on ya, to each his own.

I own some nice hunting land near there. I didn't post it ad locoweed anyone to hunt but after they started parking right next to my stand and even using it the signs went up real fast. Along with aggressive enforcement.

This thread really is about property rights and being good neighbors to those who hold the rights and allow us access.
 

>>Who is going to pay for the fight?>>

I think that's a good question, Tony...

This isn't the sort of thing the land conservancies do and so far as I know, for better or worse, TU is "access neutral". This leaves the more dogmatic advocacy groups and maybe some of the Citizen Suit provision of the Clean Water Act folks. These latter are always looking for the next dustup, but the situation is quite a ways from the intent of their charters.

So, I dunno...

One thing for sure. These sorts of situations are like iron filings to magnets to the two polarities of the open access/property rights attitudinal canyon. Even if an individual or a small business (like a fly shop or whatever..) took the plunge and initiated an action in court, the national property rights groups would be in the middle of it in a heartbeat, if not quicker.

It would almost certainly be best if this could be resolved between the individuals involved. Be a h*** of a lot cheaper too.
 
From Fox’s input (thanks for the local knowledge Fox), which admittedly may or may not be 100% accurate in reality, it sounds to me like the new landowner(s) do not want anyone down there other than themselves and their guests, and are trying to gather support from their neighbors. If those parking stories are true, and I suspect they are, I don’t blame the landowners one bit. No excuse whatsoever for blocking access to a landowner’s drive. I understand that a few yahoos probably ruined this for most other anglers who are respectful of that, but still. I would have been fine with people parking along my property and accessing the stream and fishing. I would have even probably been ok with the crowds at hatch times…there’s always room to find some water if you’re willing to walk a bit. But if I came down to use MY cabin and I couldn’t pull MY car into MY driveway because some yahoos blocked it, I’d be pissed and probably would be calling a towing company.

As Pat alludes to, there are two issues here…parking AND stream access/right of way. Even if one is resolved, the other needs to be resolved as well in a permanent and stable manner.

As of right now, with Penns not having been through the court system, if the rightful landowner of the land all the way down to the stream posts it, anyone wading or fishing in the stream along that property is taking a calculated risk and is subject to a potential trespassing violation if the landowner wishes to contact law enforcement. It’s a known gray area in the law.

Suppose the stream is declared navigable by the courts though…then anyone can wade/walk/fish/whatever within the high water mark of the stream legally, as long as they enter and exit the high water mark at places that are not posted against trespassing. If that happens though, the parking situation would still need to be addressed so that there would be a place to access the stream without trespassing in the cases of the banks being posted. The ideal scenario I think would be as Pat laid out…PFBC, or some other public entity purchases a small plot of land, adjacent to the stream so that there’s access and puts in a parking lot. Walk in to the high water mark from that lot, fish, walk back out within the high water mark, and leave. That’s a project I would gladly make a donation to. Nobody can stop you in that scenario. If you come to a posted stretch of streambank, you have been notified by the landowner, and you are trespassing if you step outside of the high water mark onto their bank. If you get nailed for that, you’ve earned it.

My prediction is there will still be plenty of yahoos who ignore the posting signs under the assumption they're ok if they're in the stream, park/walk/fish, and potentially trespass. The landowners hopefully will enforce against those yahoos who are there without permission. Hopefully one of them is a wealthy yahoo, or a wealthy guide or shop affiliated yahoo who is losing business because of this, and fights it, and then the court makes a ruling, one way or the other. I suspect it's likely navigable access will win out based on history and prior cases. Best case this a couple year scenario probably though. I suspect we will likely see an increase in the crowds at Poe in the meantime.
 
Lou, some fly fishers litter too and there's no way PFBC would allow more water to be taken from the spin anglers.

I don't fish that section but I have a feeling that vehicle parking / disregard for the property owners rights was the motivation for the signs
 
As of right now, with Penns not having been through the court system, if the rightful landowner of the land all the way down to the stream posts it, anyone wading or fishing in the stream along that property is taking a calculated risk and is subject to a potential trespassing violation if the landowner wishes to contact law enforcement.

This is true. Though I've always argued that by posting it to begin with, the landowner is likewise taking a calculated risk. It's illegal to trespass, but it's also illegal to post public property.

Per the law it is not the case that "it's private until proven otherwise". If it is public, then it always was public, just like if it is private, then it always was private. Neither fishermen nor landowner currently has a greater stake to the streambed. In court, one of them would be proved wrong, and they'd be retroactively 100% wrong.

Anyway, court cases are messy and lead to everyone taking sides. I hate that. I don't want it to go to court. I don't want to start a landowner rights war, as even though I believe we'd win this particular battle, it would lead to more posting, and much of that posting would be legitimate.

The optimal solution is that some entity representing anglers talks with them, and is able to address their concerns without going that route. By concerns, I mean parking and attitude concerns. If their concerns are other than parking/angler attitude, and instead that they just want to fish in less crowded conditions, well, I'd still hold that they may own the streambank and have every right to post it, but they don't own the streambed, water, or trout anymore than the rest of us do. We'd all like lower crowds but we're just part of the crowd. I think Penns is not even questionable on whether or not it's navigable. Volumes have been written about the barges that once transported goods along it. And if there's no other option than court, so be it, I'd gladly contribute to a group fund to pony up the legal fees.
 
i know some landowners that post their land but let anyone who asks fish it. they do it to keep the numbers down.

I too hope this doesn't end up in court.
 
geebee wrote:
i know some landowners that post their land but let anyone who asks fish it. they do it to keep the numbers down.

I too hope this doesn't end up in court.

I used to post my land and on the fine print on the sign it said no hunting during certain dates. I really didn't care if someone archery hunted. I just didn't want someone interfering with the few days I was deer hunting. I'm not aware of anyone figuring that out or even calling me (number was on the sign) to ask.
 
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