More posted signs on Penns Creek!!

B

butch645xzm

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May 17, 2009
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Has Penns already been declared navigatable water???
They posted more ground below Coburn and heard it could be alot more before its over. Just want to make sure i can wade or float through.
 
Where abouts did you see the new posted signs?
 
right before the turn to the walking bridge. One guy down there is trying to get them to post all the ground past the tunnel.
 
I just spoke to a buddy up there and he told me it was posted from the curve all the way down to the walking bridge. It is also posted on the other side too. He expects it to get ugly.
 
My buddy isnt posting his right on the curve. Only one other guy has posted his so far. I think they opened up a can of worms on this. I'm curious where the high water marks will be declared. Could be clear up to the road.
 
Probably the landowners have had it with litter and people not respecting other peoples land.
 
Regarding the navigability question.

The state (DCNR) holds it to be navigable. The state isn't the final say. Courts are. It has never been fought in courts. So we don't really know one way or the other.

This is the case with the vast majority of PA waterways. Put it in the same category as say, the LJR, before the somewhat recent court proceedings which led to it's determination of being navigable. Each stream has to be determined individually by a court, so of course, the court could have a different outcome for Penns as compared to the LJR.

But, FWIW, the DCNR considers it navigable based on PA state legislature declaring it as such back in the 1800's. The court's test is whether it was used for commerce. The PA legislature designation was to protect commerce. Many landmarks along Penns are named for past commerce. Example, butter rocks = a rock that a butter barge crashed on.

www.unioncountyhistoricalsociety.org/Article24.pdf

Whether navigable or not doesn't change the fact that you can float it. You can float non-navigable streams legally. You just can't touch bottom or fish in that portion. The navigability question would determine whether you can fish there, and also whether anglers could wade or walk the bank below the high water mark.
 
You can float non-navigable streams legally. You just can't touch bottom or fish in that portion.

Really? No fishing even if you're floating thru and not touching bottom? Interesting, never heard that before, but I've never really floated anything in PA other than the Susky.
 
I know 2 of the landowners and have fished with them many times. They were warning me about this last year. 2 brothers (I think) recently purchased a bunch of that land and they are the driving force behind this, as I understand it. They tell me 3 issues have them all up in arms.

First, the amount of guides that bring clients there from the local shop. We all know the name of the shop so I won't mention it here. They get no discount on anything from his shop and they feel he doesn't appreicate their land use. Not saying I agree or disagree, just what I've heard them say.

Next, the 2 guys that just purchased the land came down last year for the GD's and couldn't find a place to park or fish and got really pissed.

Lastly, there is a local guy that fishes bait and continues to take more than his limit of fish regardless of the regulations. They are convinced he's cleaning the place out. They have turned him in to Fish Commision many times but they have yet to do anything about him so they are now taking matters into their own hands. I know the guy they are speaking about and he often gives me very good info about what's going on and I have never seen him take a fish but my friends who live there attest to the fact that he does.

Now, I have no idea if any, all or none of the above caused the postings but I'm sharing what I've been told by both landowners I know and another local friend that fishes that water almost daily.
 
Assuming navigable... (see pcray's response)

The high water mark is not absolute high water mark. It DOES NOT include the entire flood plane as some people usually suggest in these types of discussions. It's ordinary high water mark, usually interpreted as the vegetation line. Long story with a long history, but that is basically it.

If you can access the stream from public right of way or someplace not posted, then traverse the stream without crossing the vegetation line, you are "probably legal."

I'm not recommending everyone take advantage of that, just answering the question.

 
Foxgap239 wrote:
I know 2 of the landowners and have fished with them many times. They were warning me about this last year. 2 brothers (I think) recently purchased a bunch of that land and they are the driving force behind this, as I understand it. They tell me 3 issues have them all up in arms.

First, the amount of guides that bring clients there from the local shop. We all know the name of the shop so I won't mention it here. They get no discount on anything from his shop and they feel he doesn't appreicate their land use. Not saying I agree or disagree, just what I've heard them say.

Next, the 2 guys that just purchased the land came down last year for the GD's and couldn't find a place to park or fish and got really pissed.

Lastly, there is a local guy that fishes bait and continues to take more than his limit of fish regardless of the regulations. They are convinced he's cleaning the place out. They have turned him in to Fish Commision many times but they have yet to do anything about him so they are now taking matters into their own hands. I know the guy they are speaking about and he often gives me very good info about what's going on and I have never seen him take a fish but my friends who live there attest to the fact that he does.

Now, I have no idea if any, all or none of the above caused the postings but I'm sharing what I've been told by both landowners I know and another local friend that fishes that water almost daily.

thats sad to hear. Perhaps the local TU could meet with them to address their concerns ?

it doesn't sound a completely lost cause as they are anglers themselves.

i hope it works out.

ps - weirdest coincidence. yesterday, guys with that shops branded sweaters were buying flies on sale at Cabelas yesterday here. we're 160 miles from you...
 
tomitrout wrote:
You can float non-navigable streams legally. You just can't touch bottom or fish in that portion.

Really? No fishing even if you're floating thru and not touching bottom? Interesting, never heard that before, but I've never really floated anything in PA other than the Susky.

i know that in the 13 colonies there was crown grants of land before the states took ownership and in the Jackson River Crown Grant judgement , the VA court ruled the landowners owned the the riverbed - same as the DSR on the Salmon river, but the act of fishing wasn't considered.

outside the 13 colonies, ownership of the riverbed depends on state law.

 
The court's test is whether it was used for commerce.

Did that change recently?

In the past, the PA court system's position on navigability was that a waterway was "navigable in deed if navigable in fact", meaning that, regardless of whether or not it actually WAS used for commerce, if it was deemed able to be used for commercial purposes, then it would be considered navigable in any legal context.

What I find interesting is how the definition of "commercial use" changes from state to state. I believe in PA it needs to be capable of supporting boat traffic year round (with attention toward low water in the dead of summer as opposed to ice up), whereas in (I believe) Kansas, if you can float a wooden shingle down a creek, it's considered a commercial right of way.
 
Cold,

You are correct, that the legal requirement is that it be navigable in fact, i.e. CAPABLE of being used for commerce. That's the law. In actual cases to date, much of the proceedings revolved around showing that it HAD been used for commerce. If it HAD been used, then it most certainly CAN be used.

That said, your year round comment is off the mark. They've used the language "in it's ordinary state", though "ordinary" meaning for that particular time of the year. For instance, if at typical SPRING flows, it CAN be used for commerce, then it'd be navigable, even if it couldn't be used at typical late summer flows. But at the same time, you can't use an infrequent flood stage event to say, "see, I could float a boat!".

Another nugget is the language used in past cases. "If it's navigable in fact, it's navigable in whole". Meaning, if some sections are navigable, and some sections are not, the whole stream is still to be deemed navigable. For example, the Allegheny River is navigable in Pittsburgh, obviously. Well, way up in Potter County, upstream of Coudersport, it's a little brookie stream and there are places you can stand with a foot on each bank. It's still the Allegheny River. It's still considered navigable even there. Likewise, Penns Creek, if declared by a court to be navigable, would thus be navigable right on up to Penns Cave. (of course, a court could reverse previous language and say only parts are navigable).

But yeah, what counts for commerce is in question. So many streams have been used to build jack dams, and float logs downstream. Is that commerce? Or is that not it's "ordinary state" since it had to be dammed? I'd assume an individual kayaking would not count as commerce. But what if you were a kayak outfitter, and rented them out, dropped people off, and picked them up downstream? Is that commerce?

A lot of still unanswered questions by the courts. BTW, the DCNR does publish a list. They made it for gas purposes, but it is based off of the same criteria. Navigability = public streambed = public property, not private. The list isn't complete, so nobody's saying that streams not on the list AREN'T navigable. And since the DCNR has no authority, it's not saying most of these don't have to have a final determination by a court, either. It's just essentially the position of the DCNR. It is based off of PA legislature "declarations of public highway" in past legislation.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

In map form:

http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html?publicstreams=true

As for what's been verified by courts, I believe:

Allegheny
Mon
Ohio
Yough
D
Lehigh
Susquehanna (+ both branches)
Juniata
LJR
 
And, just a comment, I do think this one will end up being challenged by somebody. Court cases a'comin.

If you post an area that's not particularly popular by fishermen, rafters, kayakers, etc., it's unlikely anyone will care enough to gather the resources and take it to court. Likewise, if you post a tiny, meaningless portion of even a popular stream, for instance the 1 property just below Paradise on Spring Creek, then it's unlikely anyone will fight it, even if technically they could.

The consensus is that it's generally better to lose that bit of water than it is to start a war with landowners. Even if you win the battle, you take a step back in the war as landowners pick sides and many will post additional water out of spite (and most of them have a right to do just that).

But a significant, famous, easy access portion of Penns Creek, which controls access to a very large portion of that stream, and with a commerce history that's well recorded? Yeah, someone will take that one up. Just like the LJR. Might take a few years but it'll be in court.

And I do feel for the landowner, I understand his concerns. Especially regarding the parking situation down there.

Not a good situation at all. It's gonna get ugly.
 
i know that in the 13 colonies there was crown grants of land before the states took ownership and in the Jackson River Crown Grant judgement , the VA court ruled the landowners owned the the riverbed - same as the DSR on the Salmon river, but the act of fishing wasn't considered.

outside the 13 colonies, ownership of the riverbed depends on state law.

yeah, I recall reading some articles abut that mess down in VA with the Crown Grants and not being able to even fish or float thru. But I didn't think that was the case here in PA, maybe has something to do with us being a Commonwealth? And I think you need to show continuity from the original Crown Grant to present day ownership, or something.

I'm curious about this because I've heard of folk floating the Breeches and fishing while on the move thru private property, but when they revisited to fish on foot they were denied, which makes sense & I understand. Surprised to hear from PCray that you can be hassled about fishing even while floating, I didn't think that was the case in PA.

And yeah, this will be a mess on Penn's. I'm guessing this property is upstream from the footbridge at the tunnel downstream from Coburn? Trying to get my bearings...
 
My family has had a cabin on Penns Creek, mid way between Weikert and Cherry Run, since before I was born. Several people has questioned us about posted land on Penns Creek and nobody owns the moving waters of a stream, nor can a land owner deny anybody safe haven within the high water mark, no matter what the circumstances are. Fishing that land or from that very land is a completely different story.
We have never denied fisherman from fishing but we have had our patience tried some years by some people. It's a touchy subject to people who believe they actually own Penns Creek vs. the individuals who feel they have the right to fish Penns Creek.
 
Landowners definitely have a right to post their land.

If the landowners are just posting their land, then none of the navigability stuff has any relevance.

But if they are trying to prevent people from floating the creek or wading in the stream channel even though the fishermen have accessed the stream legally at another place, then the navigability question would come into play.

And that would have to be decided in court.

But from what I've read so far, it sounds like they are just posting their land. I have not seen anyone state that they are trying to prevent people from boating the creek, or wading up and down.



 
pcray1231 wrote:
And, just a comment, I do think this one will end up being challenged by somebody. Court cases a'comin. ...

...But a significant, famous, easy access portion of Penns Creek, which controls access to a very large portion of that stream, and with a commerce history that's well recorded? Yeah, someone will take that one up. Just like the LJR. Might take a few years but it'll be in court...

...It's gonna get ugly.

Who is going to pay for the fight?
This is different than the Little J issue. In that case, there was a lawsuit involving Spruce Creek Outfitters against Spring Ridge Club for illegally stifling their business.
That was what motivated the research on the LJR history to prove commerce and all of the legal gobbledygook that went along with it.
Damages were sought in that case. An attorney paid for the research to have LJR deemed navigable so that he could win the lawsuit for Spruce Creek Outfitters against Spring Ridge Club and collect damages for Spruce Creek Outfitters.
We all benefitted from the research which in turn led to LJR being deemed navigable. But that wasn't done for us (well, it was, but it was more to screw SRC).
Who will pay for all of that research in this case?
You? Me? This Board? The Feathered Hook? A guide?
People lose their motivation to fight these things once they're informed that it's gonna be paid for out of their wallet.
It sucks.
 
Foxgap, if that's the case, I can't say I blame the landowners for posting their ground.
 
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