Mo money mo problems

[Schaefer406]

Pennsylvania fishing license price increases approved

(WHTM) — The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission’s Board has approved a proposal to raise rates for fishing licenses and permits for next year. The license rate for Pennsylvania resid…

www.abc27.com

IMO I kind of wish the license price would increase a bit more to give some of the workers better wages and funding opportunities for projects, data collection, etc. I really would like to see FBC conduct more of the biologist surveys. Last week when fishing I was approached by one FBC worker conducting creel surveys, where she asked about how often I fish, how far I travel, $ spent on travel, satisfaction with the current management of the stream I was on, and any thoughts on how further management of the stream should be handled. She also gave me a lot of great information on proposed actions for the stream and upcoming regulation changes. This was a very positive experience for me and I was happy to help her collect the data. I even gave her one of my top producing flies to try out next time she is out. I was also given a creel survey form where I marked my catches, catch sizes, and added any other comments I had before mailing it in. This is the type of stuff that I think is beneficial to our waterways and helps swing a positive perception on management and getting more anglers involved.

If you're worried about $2.50, skip out on buying yourself a Hershey bar on your next gas station trip...

 

[discomidge]

Same thing has happened to me twice this year (and probably on the same stream as you). Both times the convo turned to some interesting topics, as well as gear talk (what do you think about that rod, etc). I'm interested to hear the results of their survey.

 

[Millsertime]

I've bought many fishing license from many different states. PA is by far the cheapest including resident and non-resident licenses. Take it a step further and compare hunting license, doe tags, etc in PA compared to other states and there is an even bigger gap when comparing pricing.

I'd say our bang for buck in PA is quite good even with a modest price increase.

 

[Fish Sticks]

IMO I kind of wish the license price would increase a bit more to give some of the workers better wages and funding opportunities for projects, data collection, etc. I really would like to see FBC conduct more of the biologist surveys. Last week when fishing I was approached by one FBC worker conducting creel surveys, where she asked about how often I fish, how far I travel, $ spent on travel, satisfaction with the current management of the stream I was on, and any thoughts on how further management of the stream should be handled. She also gave me a lot of great information on proposed actions for the stream and upcoming regulation changes. This was a very positive experience for me and I was happy to help her collect the data. I even gave her one of my top producing flies to try out next time she is out. I was also given a creel survey form where I marked my catches, catch sizes, and added any other comments I had before mailing it in. This is the type of stuff that I think is beneficial to our waterways and helps swing a positive perception on management and getting more anglers involved.

If you're worried about $2.50, skip out on buying yourself a Hershey bar on your next gas station trip...

Pfbc has many good passionate employees, the problem is they misuse them. So that extra 2.50 aint gonna help them and will be wasted. What people don’t understand is they CHOOSE to under fund their actual responsibilities, ya know fish management/conservation of native biodiversity, to produce roughly 5 million stocked invasive species. You could give them an extra 100 bucks a year and your just going to get hatchery repairs, more surveys related to stocked trout, advertisements about buying a fishing license.

Little known fact, those biologists who are passionate and want to be managing resources have to pick up a bucket and stock trout all day sometimes. Their talents are wasted at PFBC. Id a couple thousand dollars a year if I knew it wouldn’t be going to ecological warfare on the states aquatic ecosystems.

 

[Mike]

Or compared to the cost of a house, or price of gasoline, or just about anything else.

The biggest financial mistake the PFBC made was the senior license.

Troutbert, you have a point, although my opinion is more nuanced.

Years ago I used to think that the lifetime Sr license was too cheap. Then I thought we were going to get somewhere when a change was made. I don’t recall the exact change, but the part that I didn’t like was that the Sr’s only had to have purchased one trout stamp for the rest of their fishing license lives. Now, the situation is better in my view in that as a lifetime Sr license holder I still have to purchase a trout stamp annually or be covered by a longer period stamp. Mine is a 10 yr stamp, priced accordingly at perhaps a very slight discount. I don’t recall the details of the stamp purchase, but I’ll be due to make another one in 4 yrs barring any unforeseen mortality or disabilities.

For my part, I would have gladly continued with a regular resident license if it had been required. And just for the record, PFBC former and present employees do not receive any type of discount.

 

[fcarp]

For all of you that say you’d pay more/would support an increase - have you been buying the volunteer permits? Not trying to shame anybody but I really appreciate this setup as it allowed me to use my money to voice my opinion to the PFBC in a more tangible way, putting money towards a specific “cause” if you will. I was happy to see they made this an option a few years back (and similarly the license button)

 

[caddisflyer]

I spend more than cost of a license each week on coffee.

 

[Fish Sticks]

For all of you that say you’d pay more/would support an increase - have you been buying the volunteer permits? Not trying to shame anybody but I really appreciate this setup as it allowed me to use my money to voice my opinion to the PFBC in a more tangible way, putting money towards a specific “cause” if you will. I was happy to see they made this an option a few years back (and similarly the license button)

So my issue with those voluntary permits is they go to a-lot of brown trout streams so if I wanted to donate my money to conservation I wouldn’t want to enhance lantern flies, brown trout, or any other invasive species. When they do do habitat work in a brook trout stream with brown trout what we see happen many times is very similar to this case study below from Wisconsin where they actually documented what happened post construction(they won’t survey or publish it)

https://www.kiaptuwish.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Pine-Creek-Case-Study_Final-Presentation-Manuscript_Wild-Trout-Symposium_0917.pdf

Stream restoration in the traditional sense where you have brown and brooktrout together helps the brown trout kill off the brook trout-populations. We know that because of solid fisheries science.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/rec.12925

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/rec.13678

Good observation on your part that theoretically there is a way to help conservation of native biodiversity voluntarily. Its tough because the fisheries science has bot been communicated to the public enough yet for widespread awareness that restoring habitat while pumping watersheds full of stocked invasive fish is not effective. But good original thought.

I’d donate voluntarily for dual conservation/fishing easements instead or strictly allopatric brook trout habitat work.

Heres what could really make a difference that surrounding states have done and worked great.

Brook trout specific regs. $0

Brook trout management areas $0

Stocking reform. $0 to put ls money back in PFBC pocket

stocking authorization to reign in wild wild west of private stocked invasive soecies. $0 to could charge small fee to make money


All that is a lot more effective than disjointed habitat improvements in streams your pumping full of invasive species. Its a really expensive way to spin your wheels if your goal is to protect native biodiversity

 

[Fish Sticks]

For all of you that say you’d pay more/would support an increase - have you been buying the volunteer permits? Not trying to shame anybody but I really appreciate this setup as it allowed me to use my money to voice my opinion to the PFBC in a more tangible way, putting money towards a specific “cause” if you will. I was happy to see they made this an option a few years back (and similarly the license button)

I do see though that you were trying to point out however that it sends a message to pfbc that reflects your/ angler priorities from a fishing perspective though which is true.

The west branch and north central pa streams where land is relatively cheap would be great conservation easement/ angler access tragets. Pfbc used almost all of a $27.5 million dollar grant on just hatchery repairs. They could buy enormous chunks of watersheds for that and restore them later if need be. Development is coming in PA they are making more homes/ warehouses not more streams.

Fishing=fish+stream+ access

Conservation= protecting native fish+ protecting stream

PFBC is just producing invasive trout and making wood and rock hotels for them not preserving streams intact, which as pointed above, is crucial to fishing and conservation. If this sounds like idealistic crazy talk just consider this is what the game comission did with SGL’s….,.,ironically where we all fish very often no thanks to pfbc.

Could you imagine if game comission just raised invasive bengal tigers to hunt in your community park and bought no access. We laugh but this is EXACTLY what is happening with invasive brown and rainbow trout.

 

[Bamboozle]

...Years ago I used to think that the lifetime Sr license was too cheap. Then I thought we were going to get somewhere when a change was made. I don’t recall the exact change, but the part that I didn’t like was that the Sr’s only had to have purchased one trout stamp for the rest of their fishing license lives. Now, the situation is better in my view in that as a lifetime Sr license holder I still have to purchase a trout stamp annually or be covered by a longer period stamp. Mine is a 10 yr stamp, priced accordingly at perhaps a very slight discount...

I found that a little strange when I perused the license purchase options on the PFBC website...

You can buy a Resident Senior Lifetime License and never have to buy another license in PA, even if you are no longer a resident. However you cannot buy a Resident Senior Lifetime Trout Stamp, only one that is good for 10 years...

I concluded that the PFBC must have some actuaries on staff that concluded senior trout fishermen don't live as long as let's say bass fisherman so a lifetime trout stamp wasn't necessary...

That may give me pause when I have to make the decision as to whether trout fishing shortens life expectancy and therefore should be avoided as an activity after the age of 65...

I have my own theory that it isn't such a far-fetched concept...

 

[Swattie87]

I concluded that the PFBC must have some actuaries on staff that concluded senior trout fishermen don't live as long as let's say bass fisherman so a lifetime trout stamp wasn't necessary...

That may give me pause when I have to make the decision as to whether trout fishing shortens life expectancy and therefore should be avoided as an activity after the age of 65...

I’ve been thinking of switching to Fallfish myself.

 

[wildtrout2]

I found that a little strange when I perused the license purchase options on the PFBC website...

You can buy a Resident Senior Lifetime License and never have to buy another license in PA, even if you are no longer a resident. However you cannot buy a Resident Senior Lifetime Trout Stamp, only one that is good for 10 years...

I got the 5 year Trout Stamp with my Resident Senior Lifetime License. Don't know how much fishing I'll be able to do past age 70. I'll play that by ear.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I’ve been thinking of switching to Fallfish myself.

Its not fun…don’t do it…definitely not thousands of miles of water you can have all to yourself that is ignored by angling public full of big fish that take swung wets, dries, nymphs and streamers. Everything you’ve heard about fallfish is lies they suck look at how miserable I am in this picture!

And to anyone thinking of taking kids fishing for abundant wild fallfish instead of going elbow to elbow with often surly territorial adult anglers on opening day over stocked trout DON’T DO IT. The American academy of pediatrics and PFBC recommends hatchery trout for “normal” childhood development

 

[mt_flyfisher]

I also have no problem with increased fishing license costs, and believe that license increases should probably happen more often, and be higher in some cases.

There have been discussions here recently about the large number of fishermen on Penns Creek, and elsewhere for example, including many coming from out of state (including Montana) so why not charge non residents a higher cost for fishing licenses than we do now?

And speaking of Montana, many PA residents go there to fish, so why not charge Montanans (and all non residents) the same as what MT charges for non resident licenses ($117.50 annually, plus a $10 conservation permit) which is more than twice PA‘s non resident license fee? MT also requires a fishing license for everyone over 11 years old, compared to 16 in PA, and has the same non resident fees for a 12 year old as an adult, but I wouldn’t want go that far for a non resident youth though.

And while we‘re at it, why not limit the numbers of anglers on sone of the busiest streams during the busiest times, perhaps by having an annual drawing, restricting the number of non residents and/or guides, or by requiring a daily permit. (I could also support a $20 daily fee for some parts of Penns Creek a couple months of the year.)

I never experienced the numbers of fishermen and the lack of consideration for fellow anglers the first several decades I fished in PA that I’ve seen the past couple decades. I’m certainly not the first to say this, and I hope I’m not the last, but there’s a lot more to being out there in comparatively wild and beautiful places like Penns Creek than there is in catching the most or the biggest fish, or to post about them including exactly where and how they were caught on the internet, etc. Perhaps by charging more or restricting access some will better appreciate and find more enjoyment in these wonderful PA places

 

[Fish Sticks]

I also have no problem with increased fishing license costs, and believe that license increases should probably happen more often, and be higher in some cases.

There have been discussions here recently about the large number of fishermen on Penns Creek, and elsewhere for example, including many coming from out of state (including Montana) so why not charge non residents a higher cost for fishing licenses than we do now?

And speaking of Montana, many PA residents go there to fish, so why not charge Montanans (and all non residents) the same as what MT charges for non resident licenses ($117.50 annually, plus a $10 conservation permit) which is more than twice PA‘s non resident license fee? MT also requires a fishing license for everyone over 11 years old, compared to 16 in PA, and has the same non resident fees for a 12 year old as an adult, but I wouldn’t want go that far for a non resident youth though.

And while we‘re at it, why not limit the numbers of anglers on sone of the busiest streams during the busiest times, perhaps by having an annual drawing, restricting the number of non residents and/or guides, or by requiring a daily permit. (I could also support a $20 daily fee for some parts of Penns Creek a couple months of the year.)

I never experienced the numbers of fishermen and the lack of consideration for fellow anglers the first several decades I fished in PA that I’ve seen the past couple decades. I’m certainly not the first to say this, and I hope I’m not the last, but there’s a lot more to being out there in comparatively wild places and beautiful like Penns Creek than there is in catching the most or the biggest fish, or to post about them including exactly where and how they were caught on the internet, etc. Perhaps by charging more or restricting access some will better appreciate and find more enjoyment in these wonderful PA places

Its almost like if you have tons of fish in your state but PFBC does nothing significant to secure access to streams we all have to stack up in the same ones.

Another thing covid did was sell thousands of gallons of purple paint. Pfbc is having angler access eroded and they don’t even know unless its one of their crappy stocked trout fisheries that they have to stop stocking when access is lost.



We need places to fish and spread out anglers and not just thousands of stocked invasive trout put into an eighth of a mile of stream in a municipal park that disperse onto private property.


We have 86k stream miles 2nd most to alaska and streams are crowded because, unlike the game comission, PFBC won’t acquire land for their license purchasers to secure sports future.

What will PFBC do with 5 million trout and streams degraded by development that are also posted in the coming decades?

See you all at children’s lake in boiling springs to compete over those 5 million stocked trout.

 

[TimMurphy]

Troutbert, you have a point, although my opinion is more nuanced.

Years ago I used to think that the lifetime Sr license was too cheap. Then I thought we were going to get somewhere when a change was made. I don’t recall the exact change, but the part that I didn’t like was that the Sr’s only had to have purchased one trout stamp for the rest of their fishing license lives. Now, the situation is better in my view in that as a lifetime Sr license holder I still have to purchase a trout stamp annually or be covered by a longer period stamp. Mine is a 10 yr stamp, priced accordingly at perhaps a very slight discount. I don’t recall the details of the stamp purchase, but I’ll be due to make another one in 4 yrs barring any unforeseen mortality or disabilities.

For my part, I would have gladly continued with a regular resident license if it had been required. And just for the record, PFBC former and present employees do not receive any type of discount.

Dear Mike,

I'd be interested if you or anyone else has any idea how the lifetime licenses effect the revenue in other States besides PA? Speaking about residents of each state, 35 states out of the 50 states offer discount licenses for seniors. In 13 of the 50 seniors don't even need a license, though the age varies from 60 in AK to 70 in several states.

I ask how their revenue stream is because when I moved to NY State in 1991, I thought hard about buying a lifetime license. It was based on age, and at that time at 31 years old it would have been $ 300.00. But that included full hunting privileges for small and big game using all manners to take them.

I didn't hunt and still don't hunt, so I foolishly looked at from the POV that I really didn't need to subsidize hunting. I regret that decision. If it was 1991 again and I went to purchase the lifetime license today it would be $ 785.00 for age 31 to 69. At the same time an annual NYS resident license has increased from $ 12.50 to $ 25.00. In 1991 a PA license was $ 12.50 and in 2023 it is $ 23.50 exclusive of any permits which are not required in NY.

Pennsylvania has not kept pace with surrounding States as far as license fees are concerned for far too long. Hopefully this coming increase helps, but I honestly don't see doing much. PA is peculiar in that people will spend $ 15.00 or more in gas to fish each time they fish in month but whine like stuck pigs if they have to pay $ .07 a day for the privilege. That's definitely a PA thing!

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Kyle]

i would still buy it if it went up to $100. the price of a fishing license doesnt matter to me. and i buy 3 non resident licenses every year. the reward far out weighs the price. fishing is what i do. anytime time i have to fish im doing it. and when i dont well then im thinking about it. i know a few big game hunters and the amount of money they spend on out of state hunts is crazy. so my few hundred dollars a year to fish is nothing for a hobbie i love. i actually look forward to buying all my new licenses at the end of the year. and when i get them in mail, its even better.

 

[jifigz]

We have 86k stream miles 2nd most to alaska and streams are crowded because, unlike the game comission, PFBC won’t acquire land for their license purchasers to secure sports future.

Hmmmm..... Maybe you need different places to fish. I've fished an average of probably 3 days a week since April 1 and haven't seen more than a handful of other anglers on all of those trips combined.

This evening I was fishing a delayed harvest stretch of a stream and, once again, saw zero anglers.

I'm not really sure the game commission comparison is fair at all. Do you hunt deer? Head to some of that game commission owned land in deer rifle season. You'll see plenty of people AND the game commission has secured all that land.

Hunting license sales are like fishing license sales, too. Lower than they used to be.

I'm editing my post before I get called out on it to say this: on my Penns weekend in April we saw other anglers, quite a few. That was my only fishing trip of the year like that. But it was still easy to find space.

 

[wildtrout2]

I'm not really sure the game commission comparison is fair at all. Do you hunt deer? Head to some of that game commission owned land in deer rifle season. You'll see plenty of people AND the game commission has secured all that land.

And, it's on many of those same state game commission lands (State Game Lands and State Forests) that have MANY wild trout streams that see very few fishermen.

 

[TimMurphy]

And, it's on many of those same state game commission lands (State Game Lands and State Forests) that have MANY wild trout streams that see very few fishermen.

Dear wildtrout,

But some of us fisherman are big folks and easily occupy the space of a couple two-tree regular folks like they up da line in Wilkes Barre.

Regards,

Tim Murphy