Letort and the uMngeni

[TimMurphy]

I think it’s admirable that you changed out the hooks to lessen the impact on the trout.

With that said, I recall some information on this site awhile ago that was very surprising where it was discussed that more trout are mortally wounded by single hooks than double or treble hooks. Your heart is in the right place but based on certain studies the hooks used on lures may not factor into mortality as much as other factors.

I’m not suggesting you change your approach since the statement below doesn’t specifically address stick baits. Food for thought.

=================
Posted by Mike PFBC. Circa June 2020

Treble vs single hooks have been tested scientifically and the results published in the scientific literature. Angler lore and emotions aside, here are the results.

Single hooks on spinners cause significantly greater delayed mortality due to the deep hooking in vital areas of the mouth and esophagus. The vital areas, such as the tongue, bleed excessively, resulting in delayed mortality.

One study countered this with small, wild brook trout. I observed that the problem in that case was that the treble hooks were TOO SMALL, most likely resulting in all three hooks being engulfed by the brook trout. This occurs in the field and is easily corrected by anglers by using slightly larger hooks, which usually prevents all three hooks from being taken by the fish. Another way to correct the problem in the field if anglers do not have lures with larger treble hooks or spare hooks is to break one of the hooks off of the treble combination. There is a too small treble hook that is placed on some lures which allows all three points to barely fit into the mouth of the wild brookies of a common sublegal size. The three points hold the mouth shut when an angler tries to extract the hook and provide a real challenge to the angler, increasing holding time and jaw damage.

As for the scientific studies evaluating barbed vs barbless hooks and delayed trout mortality, the barbless hooks cause one percent less delayed mortality. This insignificant difference is so small that anglers would not be able to detect it in fish populations. Additionally, any angler worrying about this amount of additional delayed mortality should not be lifting fish from the water to unhook the fish, be using very light tippets during trico time, or be taking photos of fish held out of the water in my opinion.

Dear Prospector,

Several years ago I had an PM exchange with Frank Nale. He offered to send me some of his spinners. When they arrived, I messaged him and asked, "Why such a large hook?" His reply was pretty much exactly what you quoted above. Over time he discovered that larger hooks prevented the fish from getting multiple barbs lodged inside their mouths and gills. It made sense to me, and I have changed many hooks on store bought spinners out for larger hooks since then.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Bamboozle]

I think it’s admirable that you changed out the hooks to lessen the impact on the trout.

With that said, I recall some information on this site awhile ago that was very surprising where it was discussed that more trout are mortally wounded by single hooks than double or treble hooks. Your heart is in the right place but based on certain studies the hooks used on lures may not factor into mortality as much as other factors.

I’m not suggesting you change your approach since the statement below doesn’t specifically address stick baits. Food for thought.

I also have selfish reasons for swapping out trebles for singles:

• Less hook tangling in the lure box
• No need for hook bonnets that take up space in the lure box
• A MASSIVE reduction in snags
• Way easier to remove to release the fish

In regards to the mortality issue, I can say unequivocally that excluding bait fishing (which I do almost exclusively with circle hooks), I have been aware of more fish mortality caused by my flies than lures of any type.

The numbers are probably skewed because I do fly fish much more often. However, things like spoons, in-line spinners and plugs almost never hook the fish anywhere but in the hard areas of the mouth and if you know when to strike with a soft plastic bait, it's the same situation.

The fish handling thing is the big problem. Interestingly enough in Europe where competitive fishing for coarse species with bait is massively popular, they do a much better job releasing their fish. Most likely that's because there is more emphasis on unharmed release, penalties for doing it wrong and they have better tools for the job.

UK tackle manufacturers offer any number of different sized and types of hook disgorgers that make the job unbelievably easy however, none of those disgorger types are easily obtained or available in the US. I know because I have a bunch and it was a royal pain the arse (pardon the pun) to get them.

Your options for a hook disgorger or remover in the US is pair of hemos or pliers, an "often times inadequate" Ketchum Release tool or something that will barely fit in the mouth of a tarpon...

I always carry some of the UK bait fishing disgorgers in my fly fishing & conventional kit for those times when a nymph, a dry fly or something else is hooked deeper than expected. They really work like a charm...

 

[Bamboozle]

Dear Prospector,

Several years ago I had an PM exchange with Frank Nale. He offered to send me some of his spinners. When they arrived, I messaged him and asked, "Why such a large hook?" His reply was pretty much exactly what you quoted above. Over time he discovered that larger hooks prevented the fish from getting multiple barbs lodged inside their mouths and gills. It made sense to me, and I have changed many hooks on store bought spinners out for larger hooks since then.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

The "sort of rule of thumb" for treble hook replacement is to use one one of the many "single hook replacement charts" out there. The problem with the charts is you have to know what size treble hook you are replacing.

The easier method is to use a single hook with a gape that is as close to possible to the TOTAL gape between two points on the treble you are replacing. That's another reason many single hook lures have a hook so large. You also can screw up the balance and tracking of a lure if you replace a treble with a single that is too small or too light.

The biggest problem with lure hook swapping is finding the BEST single hooks for the job WITH the correct eye orientation in the sizes you need. Unfortunately the best hooks options are only available in Japan but if you know how to buy direct from the Japanese Domestic Market (JDM) or can find a US based dealer that imports from Japan you can get the good stuff.

 

[Johnnyk1212]

Lower Letort being posted isnt a good thing, some people like Ed Reed Spent their free time to make places like Letort fishable for everyone forever, this took years to accomplish. I think with a little more faith in the fish, many would realize no amount of rapalas will make wild fish struggle (state college wouldnt exsist). I have fished letort hundreds of times and have met less than 5 people there ever, many would argue its the least pressured limestoner in the state. Posting that section was wrong and undermines peoples work. Its not even posted by the land owners. The fish that move down into the condy are the smartest fish, they arent hitting rapalas. The only spin fisherman I have ever seen have luck fishing the bottom of letort falls was fishing live bait. There are monster bass in the condy and throwing a rapala is the only way some people know how to fish.

Posting that section was for reasons beyond catering to the needs of fishermen, it's only temporary. So many people have twisted their panties into a bunch in regard to this issue but refuse to look into the reasoning behind it.

 

[afishinado]

Posting that section was for reasons beyond catering to the needs of fishermen, it's only temporary. So many people have twisted their panties into a bunch in regard to this issue but refuse to look into the reasoning behind it.

Perhaps folks would be more understanding if they knew who posted it and what is the reasoning behind it.

 

[Johnnyk1212]

Perhaps folks would be more understanding if they knew who posted it and what is the reasoning behind it.

supposedly some of the landowners along that stretch are selling their property and have it posted in the meantime during that process.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I'm not sure why anglers need to be understanding about another's property. 🤷

It's not a property in public trust.
It sucks yeah, but them the breaks.

An angler could always buy it and open it up to the public 🤔

Anglers could always buy it and donate it to the PFBC for angler access too.

 

[Johnnyk1212]

Your putting words in my mouth, and twisting them to something I didn't say.

You asked what I thought of the blog or article.
There is no new information here.

Many watersheds have moving browns.
Are you saying the Letort fish are more special than Sherman's, Yellow Breeches, how about the ones in Lower Lancaster County ? Maybe they are more unique than the ones in Pine Creek? How about in the Swatara? How about the movers in ______? You can fill in the blank.

It is happening all over the state, country and overseas.

It isn't new information, nor are these particular fish unique in the behavior.

I don’t think anyone has claimed that the above article was groundbreaking in any sense of the word. Even so, I thought the article was pretty darn interesting, especially to see parallels in the movement of fish between two continents. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of people might not even be aware of the scale of movement present in some brown trout populations. They may not necessarily be unique on a population-by-population or watershed-by-watershed basis, but that doesn’t mean they’re not unique in the big picture.

On a separate note, outwardly naming so many streams along with Eric’s name on an otherwise public forum is beyond callous.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I don’t think anyone has claimed that the above article was groundbreaking in any sense of the word. Even so, I thought the article was pretty darn interesting, especially to see parallels in the movement of fish between two continents. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of people might not even be aware of the scale of movement present in some brown trout populations. They may not necessarily be unique on a population-by-population or watershed-by-watershed basis, but that doesn’t mean they’re not unique in the big picture.

On a separate note, outwardly naming so many streams along with Eric’s name on an otherwise public forum is beyond callous.

You mean large water watersheds?
🤷

If we are going to "Prove" they exist then prove they exist. I find putting the Connie on blast in fly fisherman magazines and various blogs, callous to those local anglers. Why should they bare the burden all alone?

I don't think any of it is unique. The mere fact it happens on separate continents shows this.

Important? To a brown trout populations survival, likely not.
Resident fish make up most the population.
Important to fisherman. Yeah probably.

 

[Johnnyk1212]

You mean large water watersheds?
🤷

If we are going to "Prove" they exist then prove they exist. I find putting the Connie on blast in fly fisherman magazines and various blogs, callous to those local anglers.

Eh it’s the principle of the thing. In regards to putting the Connie on blast, you’re certainly not wrong. Myself being one of those local anglers. But that doesn’t make it okay to put everything else on blast, too.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

One a side note:

Those falls keep getting shorter and shorter as far a length from them to the mouth.

I would find that more concerning as far as fish migration than the posting.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Eh it’s the principle of the thing. In regards to putting the Connie on blast, you’re certainly not wrong. Myself being one of those local anglers. But that doesn’t make it okay to put everything else on blast, too.

Right it is a principle thing. You aren't the only angler there and not all are happy about it.

I think the blasters should be blasted for it, and it appears they have no desire to shut up about these fish. Just promote and promote away, as long as it isn't their watershed.

Eventually , to full explain it their life cycle and "protect " these fish, will lead to them being exposed. It's just common sense.


Hey everybody, nearly all larger warm water watersheds in PA hold moving brown trout part of the year, including the Susquehanna.
If you have one in your area, a mid size to larger "smallmouth" type river they are there moving in and out of tribs 😳 shocking.

Before, they were left to do their thing, now they need "protection".

 

[Johnnyk1212]

Right it is a principle thing. You aren't the only angler there and not all are happy about it.

I think the blasters should be blasted for it, and it appears they have no desire to shut up about these fish. Just promote and promote away, as long as it isn't their watershed.

When I said it was a principle thing, I was referring to the concept of not naming streams on a public forum. Regardless of the level of public knowledge on them presently available, or who else has put them on blast so to speak. Coming out and naming several other watersheds just because people have put the Con in the public spotlight just brings things full circle. And yes, I understand I’m not the only angler in the area and I am in the group that is not happy about it. Any of it. Which is why I responded to your comment in the first place.

To reply to your side note, I agree, the erosion of the stream bank at the mouth of Letort is of great concern.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

When I said it was a principle thing, I was referring to the concept of not naming streams on a public forum. Regardless of the level of public knowledge on them presently available, or who else has put them on blast so to speak. Coming out and naming several other watersheds just because people have put the Con in the public spotlight just brings things full circle. And yes, I understand I’m not the only angler in the area and I am in the group that is not happy about it. Any of it. Which is why I responded to your comment in the first place.

To reply to your side note, I agree, the erosion of the stream bank at the mouth of Letort is of great concern.

I was editing my comment when you replied, just so you know.
Sorry just trying to help their "cause".
It's all about the fishhhhhh!

 

[Johnnyk1212]

I was editing my comment when you replied, just so you know.
Sorry just trying to help their "cause".
It's all about the fishhhhhh!

Just in case you didn’t know, I have it on good authority that as a result of the fight to bring value to those fish there is a plan approved with funding to re-establish that mouth on the Letort.

 

[Tom1980]

Right it is a principle thing. You aren't the only angler there and not all are happy about it.

I think the blasters should be blasted for it, and it appears they have no desire to shut up about these fish. Just promote and promote away, as long as it isn't their watershed.

Eventually , to full explain it their life cycle and "protect " these fish, will lead to them being exposed. It's just common sense.


Hey everybody, nearly all larger warm water watersheds in PA hold moving brown trout part of the year, including the Susquehanna.
If you have one in your area, a mid size to larger "smallmouth" type river they are there moving in and out of tribs 😳 shocking.

Before, they were left to do their thing, now they need "protection".

THANK YOU! This is on point.

 

[Johnnyk1212]

I was editing my comment when you replied, just so you know.
Sorry just trying to help their "cause".
It's all about the fishhhhhh!

Agree with Eric or not, no one was trying to help the cause of those fish until he began to raise hell about it.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Agree with Eric or not, no one was trying to help the cause of those fish until he began to raise hell about it.

They seem to be doing fine 😂
What help do they need?
They have been under anglers noses this whole time. They seem well equipped being " the most ecological advanced species genetically on the planet."

 

[Johnnyk1212]

They seem to be doing fine 😂

Sure. But you yourself mentioned concerns in regards to the erosion of the stream bank at the mouth. Which wouldn’t be addressed otherwise.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Sure. But you yourself mentioned concerns in regards to the erosion of the stream bank at the mouth. Which wouldn’t be addressed otherwise.

I forgot historically no Letort issues have been addressed without the knowledge of large migratory trout. 😅

Sorry that isn't an accurate thought, factually.

Is the mouth being addressed?