Letort and the uMngeni

[Stenonema]

Your putting words in my mouth, and twisting them to something I didn't say.

You asked what I thought of the blog or article.
There is no new information here.

Many watersheds have moving browns.
Are you saying the Letort fish are more special than Sherman's, Yellow Breeches, how about the ones in Lower Lancaster County ? Maybe they are more unique than the ones in Pine Creek? How about the movers in ______? You can fill in the blank.
It is happening all over the state, country and overseas.

It isn't new information.

I didn't twist anything.. and I sure didn't intend to get your panties in a bunch. Take a breath Chief..

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I didn't twist anything.. and I sure didn't intend to get your panties in a bunch. Take a breath Chief..

I think you mistake, both what I said and my emotions.

 

[Bamboozle]

You question whether it should be legal to target a fish with a lure? Why? Because it has 2 treble hooks? A fish that continues to expand its range and thrive in our state, even with waters that allow all forms of tackle and have no restrictions.

I fly fish and only fly fish unless I'm catfishing. But we knock live bait, we knock lures, jeesh, people gotta be able to live a little.

I was once humiliated (versus humiliated once ) on the Delayed Harvest Artificials Only section of the Wiconisco by a kid spin fishing...

I had already been skunked fly fishing so I walked back to my car to get my ever present ultralight spinning rod & lures. I then proceeded to get skunked with in-line spinners and jigs on the ultralight outfit when I saw this kid catching and releasing trout, one after one.

I couldn't stand it any more so I broke down and asked him what he was using. It was a very small Rapala called a Rap-X. I only had one very small plug in my box that I promptly tied on and I caught a trout on my first cast...

Needless to say I ordered some Rap-X's when I got home and they are now part of my ultralight/BFS kit.

That being said last year I got into the Bait or Bass Finesse System (BFS) which is using specially designed or specially tuned bait casting gear to cast lures as light as one gram. Many of the tiny lures I use are only available in Japan or through US based dealers who import BFS tackle.

Just about everyone who fishes this way and a lot of others who don't, did what I also did last year and replaces the treble hooks on their lures with single hooks made for the purpose. In most cases the result on hard baits is two single hooks but in many cases with spoons, the tiniest plugs (and I mean TINY) and in-line spinners, it is one single hook...

...just like most flies.

So we're not all fishing with grappling hooks and tearing up the mouths of trout like some folks want to think and I DON'T mean you jifigz.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I was once humiliated (versus humiliated once ) on the Delayed Harvest Artificials Only section of the Wiconisco by a kid spin fishing...

I had already been skunked fly fishing so I walked back to my car to get my ever present ultralight spinning rod & lures. I then proceeded to get skunked with in-line spinners and jigs on the ultralight outfit when I saw this kid catching and releasing trout, one after one.

I couldn't stand it any more so I broke down and asked him what he was using. It was a very small Rapala called a Rap-X. I only had one very small plug in my box that I promptly tied on and I caught a trout on my first cast...

Needless to say I ordered some Rap-X's when I got home and they are now part of my ultralight/BFS kit.

That being said last year I got into the Bait or Bass Finesse System (BFS) which is using specially designed or specially tuned bait casting gear to cast lures as light as one gram. Many of the tiny lures I use are only available in Japan or through US based dealers who import BFS tackle.

Just about everyone who fishes this way and a lot of others who don't, did what I also did last year and replaces the treble hooks on their lures with single hooks made for the purpose. In most cases the result on hard baits is two single hooks but in many cases with spoons, the tiniest plugs (and I mean TINY) and in-line spinners, it is one single hook...

...just like most flies.

So we're not all fishing with grappling hooks and tearing up the mouths of trout like some folks want to think and I DON'T mean you jifigz.

Yeah, there are plenty of guys who do use proper equipment and do care for the fish and of course, there are those that don't .
On both sides

 

[jifigz]

Certain tackle is more likely to cause harm to fish, that is true. But someone who hooks a fish with a double treble and keeps it in the water, unhooks it quickly, and releases it properly and lovingly is much better than someone who catches one on a fly or lure with a single hook and keeps it in the net for 10 minutes, lifts it out of the water for prolonged periods of time to get that perfect photo, and puts as fish back that is already half dead.

Back when I was a hardcore bass catching maniac with all of my fancy baitcasting rods and expensive spinning rods was appalled at the way some treated handled their bass or what techniques they caught them with. I remember being horrified at Kahle Lake in Venango county watching a guy keep big largemouths out of there. "What a crime," I thought.

I have long since come off my high-horse. I will respect the choices of others within reason and let them fish how they want to.

 

[Stenonema]

I think you mistake, both what I said and my emotions.

Dude why are you going back and changing your comments after I have replied to them?

 

[Stenonema]

Your putting words in my mouth, and twisting them to something I didn't say.

You asked what I thought of the blog or article.
There is no new information here.

Many watersheds have moving browns.
Are you saying the Letort fish are more special than Sherman's, Yellow Breeches, how about the ones in Lower Lancaster County ? Maybe they are more unique than the ones in Pine Creek? How about in the Swatara? How about the movers in ______? You can fill in the blank.

It is happening all over the state, country and overseas.

It isn't new information, nor are these particular fish unique in the behavior.

Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exists.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exist

Dude why are you going back and changing your comments after I have replied to them?

Calm down.
You obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say. I cleared up context for anyone else. All I added was the very last sentence which was my point

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Depending on the time of introduction and the hatchery source, the brown trout stocked around Pennsylvania represented a range of genetic diversity. Natural selection operating in new environments for the past 50 to 130 years, fine tuning adaptations to these new environments, has likely produced an array of differentiation so that hardly any two populations of Pennsylvania brown trout are exactly alike. It is possible that some of the original shipments from von Behr or from Loch Leven were stocked into waters that were never stocked again and the original "pure" form still exists.

Possible.

Yet, I see waters in downstream sections, stocked much after this, having brown trout infiltrate upstream tributaries.

I'm not convinced the trait is unique to just those strains .

A simple search about other types of brown trout overseas should prove this.

 

[Stenonema]

Calm down.
You obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say. I cleared up context for anyone else.

You name drop a stream name you know is very personal to me because you know who I am and then say calm down.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Oh for f sake.
It's happening in all warm water streams, in all major river systems in PA.

To some of us the Connie is special but you take no issue dropping that one.

Pick, are you going to protect the fish or popularize them Eric, you can't do both.

 

[Bamboozle]

I have no clue in regards to the details and hopefully someone who knows the facts chimes in...

...but I am NOT entirely positive that wild brown trout from other nearby watersheds MAY have been introduced into the Letort after the massive fish kill in 1981 caused by insecticide used in the cress farm.

What I do know is local anglers which included Fox, Marinaro, Shenk, Koch & Company were adamant that the then PA Fish Commission did NOT stock regular hatchery brown trout to help reestablish the fish population.

However I seem to THINK I recall the possibility that wild fish from Big Springs or possibly Falling Springs were "stocked" to boost the numbers as the stream was decimated from the junction of the left branch at Bonnybrook on down.

If I am correct this would further complicate the species identification.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I have no clue in regards to the details and hopefully someone who knows the facts chimes in...

...but I am NOT entirely positive that wild brown trout from other nearby watersheds MAY have been introduced into the Letort after the massive fish kill in 1981 caused by insecticide used in the cress farm.

What I do know is local anglers which included Fox, Marinaro, Shenk, Koch & Company were adamant that the then PA Fish Commission did NOT stock regular hatchery brown trout to help reestablish the fish population.

However I seem to THINK I recall the possibility that wild fish from Big Springs or possibly Falling Springs were "stocked" to boost the numbers as the stream was decimated from the junction of the left branch at Bonnybrook on down.

If I am correct this would further complicate the species differentiation.

For that particular watershed that is possible.
I can point to one decimated by pollution that recently cleaned up and now has moving populations of wild brown trout with the plants being much after.

 

[Canoetripper]

I am late to this thread, but I used to go on canoe trips on the very upper Delaware River starting on the West Branch. I have caught smaller brown trout on both Rapala's and Mepps spinners while targeting bass.

This was back in the mid/late 80's. Not what I expected but a pleasant surprise none the less.

I know that the Delaware is very different now than back then. Much less fishing pressure.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I have no clue in regards to the details and hopefully someone who knows the facts chimes in...

...but I am NOT entirely positive that wild brown trout from other nearby watersheds MAY have been introduced into the Letort after the massive fish kill in 1981 caused by insecticide used in the cress farm.

What I do know is local anglers which included Fox, Marinaro, Shenk, Koch & Company were adamant that the then PA Fish Commission did NOT stock regular hatchery brown trout to help reestablish the fish population.

However I seem to THINK I recall the possibility that wild fish from Big Springs or possibly Falling Springs were "stocked" to boost the numbers as the stream was decimated from the junction of the left branch at Bonnybrook on down.

If I am correct this would further complicate the species identification.

Maybe not up that far but below did receive many stockings .

Letort Spring Run - Cumberland Valley Trout Unlimited

Lower Letort Designated Class A Effective February 18, 2006, the PA Fish and Boat Commission (PFBC) approved the addition of 3 miles of Letort Spring Run, from Post Road Bridge downstream to the mouth at the Conodoguinet, to its list of Class A Wild Trout

www.pacvtu.org

"In 1981 a sewage treatment plant discharge was relocated from Letort Spring Run to Conodoguinet Creek. Surveys in 1984 and 1985 documented a low-density wild brown trout population that was not capable of sustaining a significant fishery. CVTU members then annually stocked 9,000 fingerling brown trout provided by PFBC. By 1999 water quality and habitat had recovered, and brown trout reproduction was sustaining the population, therefore the fingerling stocking ended."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1981/07/05/the-killing-of-the-letort-trout-poisons-decimate-angling-shrine/a61f6859-9581-49dc-be35-75dac67efbaa/

"The LeTort has its own breed of brown trout, a cross between German-origin browns stocked early in the century and prized Lock Leven browns from Scotland that Fox purloined after they were stocked in nearby streams. The resulting strain was scrappy and particularly wary, responding only to the deftest angler's approach.

Fox wants future generations of LeTort trout to evolve from the few that are left, to retain this special hybrid strain and keep the challenging nature of the stream intact.

"I've never seen anything like it," said Fox of the difficulty of fishing the LeTort, "and everyone who comes here says the same thing." He cited a combination of factors -- the slow flow, making proper presentation of flies critical; the soft banks, which required anglers to creep not only slowly but softly; the abundant food sources, which made the trout more selective; and the thick grass beds, which forced fishermen to fish deep in blind holes when the trout fed on bugs in the undergrowth."

By now the Letort fish are a hodgepodge of genetics.

Any know how many Loch Levens were "purloined" from other nearby watersheds?

 

[Bamboozle]

Maybe not up that far but below did receive many stockings .

Letort Spring Run - Cumberland Valley Trout Unlimited

Lower Letort Designated Class A Effective February 18, 2006, the PA Fish and Boat Commission (PFBC) approved the addition of 3 miles of Letort Spring Run, from Post Road Bridge downstream to the mouth at the Conodoguinet, to its list of Class A Wild Trout

www.pacvtu.org

"In 1981 a sewage treatment plant discharge was relocated from Letort Spring Run to Conodoguinet Creek. Surveys in 1984 and 1985 documented a low-density wild brown trout population that was not capable of sustaining a significant fishery. CVTU members then annually stocked 9,000 fingerling brown trout provided by PFBC. By 1999 water quality and habitat had recovered, and brown trout reproduction was sustaining the population, therefore the fingerling stocking ended."

...By now the Letort fish are a hodgepodge of genetics.

Any know how many Loch Levens were "purloined" from other nearby watersheds?

I'm familiar with those articles. I still remember Charlie Fox telling me about the "improved" fishing below town one morning over breakfast and recommending I check out the meadow at Shady Lane in the future.

I also wonder if any browns were ever stocked below the lower limit of the FFO stretch in Letort Park. Believe it or not but back in the 1990's or early 2000's I actually got a PA grand slam of a brook, rainbow & brown out of the same hole on the same day up above the "Small S" in Vince's Meadow.

I know the brown was wild but the bow & brookie most likely made it up to "safer" water...

 

[Bamboozle]

BTW - Speaking of fishing with plugs on Conodoguinet Creek...

Lure fishing on the Conodoguinet was a favorite pastime of none other than Charles K. Fox. He was such a fan that he wrote two books on conventional fishing, "Advanced Bait Casting" in 1950 & "The Book of Lures" in 1975.

I know from conversations with him that he was particularly fond of targeting muskies & bass but who knows if an occasional trout came to hand?

I'll have to reread my copies of those books to see if he makes any mention...

 

[MarkC]

I caught a 28” brown in the lower Monocacy creek 45 years ago as a teenager. I was trapping muskrats in downtown Bethlehem when I saw two enormous brown trout holding below a waterfall. Came back with a rod and landed one. The fish ate a 6" broken back rapala.

Obviously, they came up from the Lehigh. I’m sure they still do.

Mark C

 

[krayfish2]

I caught a 28” brown in the lower Monocacy creek 45 years ago as a teenager. I was trapping muskrats in downtown Bethlehem when I saw two enormous brown trout holding below a waterfall. Came back with a rod and landed one. The fish ate a 6" broken back rapala.

Obviously, they came up from the Lehigh. I’m sure they still do.

Mark C

I can confirm that they do not and that they have been displaced by native brook trout

 

[Stenonema]

Your putting words in my mouth, and twisting them to something I didn't say.

You asked what I thought of the blog or article.
There is no new information here.

Many watersheds have moving browns.
Are you saying the Letort fish are more special than Sherman's, Yellow Breeches, how about the ones in Lower Lancaster County ? Maybe they are more unique than the ones in Pine Creek? How about in the Swatara? How about the movers in ______? You can fill in the blank.

It is happening all over the state, country and overseas.

It isn't new information, nor are these particular fish unique in the behavior.

Who made the claim there was new information? Who made the claim they are unique in behavior?
What's new is the catch and release signs in the Barracks and catch and release regulations from there to the Chesapeake bay in protection of those trout. That's new....