Legal? - The Answer

[Bamboozle]

In regards to the constantly rehashed question about whether or not you can legally fish in Class A or other un-stocked sections of Approved Trout Waters; meaning those on the list; UPSTREAM or DOWNSTREAM; from March 1 to Opening Day...

...as I mentioned in the original post; I e-mailed the PFBC the question so I could finally get in writing what I have told many times. As promised, here is the response:

QUESTION:

Dear PFBC:

Does the term Approved Trout Water include the entire stream length including un-stocked or Class A sections for the purpose of closing the stream during the period from March 1 to Opening Day or during the Extended Season?

Examples of streams which fall into this situation are Section 2 of the Monocasy Creek in Northampton County and Section 3 of the Little Lehigh Creek in Lehigh County. I fully understand the situation in regards to Class A or Wilderness tributaries but the non-stocked sections of Approved Trout Waters issue is very difficult to understand completely with the various regulation and information available to the public.

I and many others have been grappling with this question for years and although it is my understanding that if the stream name appears on the Approved Trout Waters list the ENTIRE stream is closed; a definitive and timely answer from the PFBC would be greatly appreciated.

ANSWER:

This email is in response to your question. If the Summary of Fishing Regulations simply lists a stream by name in a particular county, then the entire stream is closed in that county. In some cases, we will close only a portion of a stream and the upper and lower limits of the closed area will be listed in the fishing summary. The regulation that addresses the closing of approved trout waters to fishing states that those waters, as listed in the fishing summary, are closed during the specified period. Therefore, to comply with the regulation as it is written, a person would be prohibited from fishing during the closed period in the entire stream in a particular county, unless the fishing summary indicates that only a clearly defined portion of the stream is approved trout water. I hope this answers your question.

Sincerely,
Raymond A. Bednarchik
Region Manager


So to summarize:

ATW's as described in the response are CLOSED to fishing from March 1 to Opening Day; ALL inclusive sections

Class A & Wilderness tributaries and non-tributaries to ATW are open year round with Catch & Release ONLY rules in effect during the Extended Season and during the Closed period.

Non-Class A or non-Wilderness tributaries to ATW are open year round with Catch & Release ONLY rules in effect during the Extended Season and during the Closed period.

Somebody please save this post for next year when it comes up again!

:-D

 

[JackM]

The "so to summarize" section of your post seems to go way beyond the answer you received from the manager.

 

[Bamboozle]

Post deleted to maintain my sanity.

 

[Wulff-Man]

Bamboozle, first of all, thanks for getting it straight from the horse's mouth. I was going to do it, but I never got around to it. Then again, you ruined all the fun of our own analysis and debate! Secondly, When you say downstream non-Class A tribs are closed during the extended season, don't you mean that there is no harvest allowed, as opposed to there is no fishing allowed? I thought the only time streams were totally closed to all fishing, including C&R, was March 1 to opening day.

 

[JackM]

Bamboozle wrote:
It is clearly stated on the PFBC website that Class A & Wilderness tribs are open year long so that's a given.

But that isn't what you said. You said:

"Class A & Wilderness tributaries and non-tributaries to ATW are open year round with NO harvest during the Closed period."

In actuality, though, while a Class A non-ATW water is open to fishing year-round and there is no harvest allowed during the March 1 to Opening Day period, harvest is restricted also during the Extended Season unless the class A section is downstream of an ATW section of stream.

Bamboozle wrote:
The downstream tribs closed during the Extended Season doesn't refer to Class A & Wilderness since the rules for Class A & Wilderness are defined as mentioned above.

Downstream tributaries (assuming you mean by that a tributary that enters into a stream downstream of an ATW section) wouldn't be closed during the Extended Season, since no stream is closed during the Extended Season, and I don't think it would be included in the Extended Season for purposes of harvest either.

Bamboozle wrote:
...just trying to help.

Me too.

 

[tabasco_joe]

BTW where did you find Email addresses for PFBC? I'm trying to get a question answered and can't seem to get an answer on the phone or find an Email address to send it too. My question is related to health of the bass fishery at Sayer's Lake.

 

[Bamboozle]

Jack & Wulff:

I screwed up!

I edited my original post to say that both Class A, Wilderness AND Non Class A & non-Wilderness TRIBS are BOTH open to fishing all year EXCEPT with C&R regs in effect during BOTH the Extended Season & Closed Period.

Downstream Class A SECTIONS being open to harvest wasn't really a question anybody asked; I don't think.

I will delete my second post since it is where more of the confusion got started and that's the last thing I want to do is confuse this issue anymore.

Joe:

I just send the PFBC email through the Comments to PFBC section in the CONTACT link on the PFBC website.

 

[dryflyguy]

All right then, let's see if I have this right. Mr Bednarik states that an ATW is closed for it's entire length in that county, unless a specific stretch of the stream is specified.
So, in the case of Big Fishing Creek - it states plainly in the regs book that the ATW section is from the confluence with Cedar Run, down to the mouth.
I'm concluding then, that it's legal to fish above cedar run , which is class A water

 

[Bamboozle]

dryflyguy:

Based on what he said and how the ATW list for Clinton County reads; you are legal to fish right now above Cedar Run since the whole stream is in Clinton County, (I think).

If you get busted I'll e-mail you a copy of his e-mail to me ;-).


[Professional fisherman, closed course. Do not attempt]

 

[FarmerDave]

So, in other words, Jack and I were correct.

 

[Wulff-Man]

Me too!:
"The PFBC definition for Approved Trout waters is basically "waters that contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout" (at least that's how they describe them in their publications). To me this would mean that the whole stream is considered "approved water" of which some portions are stocked. But what's kind of odd is that their listing of Approved Waters sometimes just has the name of the stream, and other times gives boundaries. I would think that when they give boundaries, only the section within the boundaries is considered Approved Waters, and so you can fish in other sections that aren't stocked during the closed season."

Of course, then I went and waffled, and said you could read it another way too!

 

[JackM]

To be fair and honest, I originally thought that the whole stream was closed now if any of it was designated ATW, but I was eventually convinced that where sections are defined, the other parts of the stream are not closed. What I think is still true, that should be carefully noted is that parts of a stream may be ATW and therefore closed now even if the stocking on the creek occurs only in a limited portion of the Creek.

 

[dryflyguy]

I think I'll copy your letter from Mr Bednarchik and keep it with me, in case I fish that section before opening day

 

[NJAngler]

Examples:

Approved trout water list:

"McMichael Creek"

The ENTIRE stream is closed EXCEPT for the DHALO section which is open year round. So the 12 miles of headwaters owned by private club(s) is also closed and the extreme public headwaters as well.

"Pohopoco Creek (outlet of Beltzville Lake downstream to back-water of Parryville Dam)"

ONLY the section listed is closed preseason. Anything above the Beltzville is open year round.

Mark

 

[Bamboozle]

Having this finally defined is actually a great thing for me because I always assumed all Approved Trout Waters were defined as "XYZ Creek" and never considered the ramifications of the ATW defined by limits within a county thing. I guess you have to make sure year to year that they don't change a stream from a limited to an complete; if you catch my drift.

Bottom line, I never figured I could legally fish the upper Pohopoco until April 14th. I guess I have a back up place to go fishing in the next few weeks; of course armed with early season flies and a copy of Mr Bednarchik's letter!

Time to peruse that ATW list for exceptions...

 

[Wulff-Man]

So the simple answer after all of this is that any stream or stream section identified in the regs as Approved Trout Water is closed from March 1 to opening day (except for any sections under Special Regulations, of course).

 

[Bamboozle]

Yes, I guess it's that simple...

...but when I visit the Pohopoco next week I'll have a copy of the letter with me in case the WCO doesn't see it the way Mr. Bednarchik does.

 

[Chaz]

As I read the response it said nothing about Wilderness Trout Streams and Class A Tributary streams. So if you were to ask me nothing is clear except that you can't fish any ATW during the period March 1 to opening day.
Maybe we should all go fish a section of stream in question and force the stuborn folks at PFBC to just say ATW is closed all wild trout stream secions are open.

 

[Wulff-Man]

It looks like one of the confusing points is whether Class A and ATW are different stream sections, or whether an ATW can have a Class A section on it. I had come to the conclusion that it was the later, and if there was a Class A section on an ATW, then the Class A section is closed. This seems kind of dumb, when the Class A may be 5 miles above the stocked section, but I guess I'll just have to accept it.

 

[dryflyguy]

I think the key phrase in Mr. Bednarchik's response is where he states that the entire ATW is closed in that county, except if a clearly defined section of ther stream is pointed out. I would think that surely means then, that only that section of the stream listed is closed to fishing, and you can fish above or below it - catch and release of course