Improving Wild Trout Angling in PA

[JackM]

The_Sasquatch wrote:
A closed season is NOT a terrible idea. Other states do it. Protecting fish while they're spawning is a terrific idea, ESPECIALLY if you want strong wild trout populations. The last thing wild trout populations need are "trout pros" finessing trout off of redds.

If this was done on a selective group of streams for a limited time, after determining it would protect the spawn in a significant way, I would support such a regulation. But I don't think fishing during the spawn, or wading, or harvest for that matter, do much to significantly diminish successful propagation (re-population).

 

[bikerfish]

Encourage??!! heck no!! get off my water!!
seriously, regulations would almost have to depend on the stream, it's popularity, it's size, the trout population, etc.
Stopping stocking over wild fish is the biggest thing for sure. After that it's angler education, and THAT will be the tough one, some folks are rather thick headed to say the least.
I'm with Farmer, open the hatcheries to fishing!! I'm against a closed season, the last thing needed is more "opening day" mentality, with thousands of dolts descending upon the waters all at once.
catch limits on wild fish, no need to keep more than a couple fish. any more is simple selfishness.(see thick headed above).

 

[NewSal]

JackM wrote:

The_Sasquatch wrote:
A closed season is NOT a terrible idea. Other states do it. Protecting fish while they're spawning is a terrific idea, ESPECIALLY if you want strong wild trout populations. The last thing wild trout populations need are "trout pros" finessing trout off of redds.

If this was done on a selective group of streams for a limited time, after determining it would protect the spawn in a significant way, I would support such a regulation. But I don't think fishing during the spawn, or wading, or harvest for that matter, do much to significantly diminish successful propagation (re-population).

I think this is the only topic ive ever really agreed with you and farmerdave

 

[jifigz]

1) Stop stocking over streams with good populations of wild trout, whether it be Class A, B, or maybe even C.

2) Increase PFBC license fees and utilize that money for improving any stream restoration projects that may need to occur instead of using that money to stock the streams that don't need stocked.

3) Popularize and market the streams which will become top-notch wild trout destinations, of which there will be many across PA, and let the tourism dollars further bring money into the area. At that point it will be delivering too much monetary value and will therefore be protected. Think about it, Spring Creek brings more money into the state college area over the course of a year than a stocked stream that sells some licenses and then sees no one. It generates money into restaurants, hotels, the fly shops, and many other areas an has afforded the stream greater protection.

Just an FYI, I am not about 100% no kill regs on wild trout waters. Maybe a 2 fish limit or something, but I think most will still just C&R anyways and some fish harvested will not hurt the stream. I am also against closed seasons because at that point 99% of the people that are on the water are educated and care about fish and the fishing. Most meat slayers and truck chasers are long gone by this time.

 

[FarmerDave]

NewSal wrote:

JackM wrote:

The_Sasquatch wrote:
A closed season is NOT a terrible idea. Other states do it. Protecting fish while they're spawning is a terrific idea, ESPECIALLY if you want strong wild trout populations. The last thing wild trout populations need are "trout pros" finessing trout off of redds.

If this was done on a selective group of streams for a limited time, after determining it would protect the spawn in a significant way, I would support such a regulation. But I don't think fishing during the spawn, or wading, or harvest for that matter, do much to significantly diminish successful propagation (re-population).

I think this is the only topic ive ever really agreed with you and farmerdave

I was just thinking how I miss the old says when I could get in a good argument with Jack.

OK, I don't really miss that, but did think of saying it.

 

[Zak]

Caught up, read all the 'studies' and think we can pretty much agree as a group on two main things.

1. Fishing for actively spawning trout should most certainly be discouraged through educational channels. It's not a good way to go about things just from an ethical standpoint if nothing else.

2. Fishing over spawning trout has little to no scientifically proven impact on a wild trout fishery and closing of streams during the fall period would be a socially driven decision entirely.

I would say the best approach would be to keep things exactly as they are but promote the fact that actively spawning fish should be left to their task whenever possible. I don't think there is currently any effort to discourage fishing for actively spawning fish. I'd be willing to be that the vast majority of anglers have no idea that it's anything but sporting. They just don't know any better. While I don't think it has any impact on the fishery at all I certainly do not promote the activity.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

Would bet most anglers don't give a darn about spawning trout and if they see a big one or pair will gladly toss rapala or spinner right in their faces. It is just too tempting.Thankfully most of them will be bow hunting when they are actively spawning.

And if you try to tell them not to fish for spawning trout you will likely just get them curious about a new method to put a big one on a stringer for wall or table or hero pics.

Educate? Nah. you give the average Joe way too much credit.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
Would bet most anglers don't give a darn about spawning trout and if they see a big one or pair will gladly toss rapala or spinner right in their faces. It is just too tempting.Thankfully most of them will be bow hunting when they are actively spawning.

And if you try to tell them not to fish for spawning trout you will likely just get them curious about a new method to put a big one on a stringer for wall or table or hero pics.

Educate? Nah. you give the average Joe way too much credit.

Tend to agree w/ you here, FT. Education is a hard thing to do when you're going against decades of "tradition" here in PA. That's one of the reasons why I admire the Fish Commissioner in the Montana story. Popular opinion and tradition be damned, he did what was right for the fish and for the fisheries.

What about the Nursery Waters regs we see? Anyone see any value in expanding those sort of areas? Yeah...it sucks you can't fish Commissioner's Run at the Lumber Museum, but it's also pretty awesome to take a walk through there in October and see brookies spawning w/out the risk of someone tronsing through the stream

 

[krayfish2]

Zak wrote:
2. Fishing over spawning trout has little to no scientifically proven impact on a wild trout fishery.

I'm pretty sure there's data out there (and in the Maine study) that indicates increased mortality in spawning or post spawn fish that are hooked by anglers. If the mortality in spawning trout is 5% and it increased to 15% - 25% when anglers hook spawning / post spawn fish.....you are impacting the fishery....in a negative way. Picture the stress of spawning like you running a marathon. Just after crossing the finish line, you have to jump into the octagon for 5 round MMA fight. I imagine that's what it's like for the fish when being caught. It will take it's toll and my killing breeding age fish for my own selfish purpose isn't fair to the fishery or others.

If I were limited to 15 angling days a year for wild trout but those days were spent on streams filled with big naturally reproducing fish, it is worth it to me. I'd want everyone to have the same wonderful experience too.. I can spend the other days bass fishing of playing with the pellet heads.

I don't do the gemmies thing but can understand the gratifying feeling of catching a fish that is basically a work of art in beautiful surroundings. For me, the gratification comes from catching bigger wild fish in bigger water. Fooling them is only half the challenge..... landing them can be in an art in itself. It's part of my drive to share the Catskills with guys on here. History, challenge and big wild fish. I want them to give them the opportunity to have the same love for the area that I do. The selfish part is that they'll love the area and that just give more voices to help keep it protected.

Before you gemmie guys get all warm and fuzzy.....you still suck. LOL

 

[724flyfishing]

1. Secure more access rights.

2. C&R only for salmonoids, statewide, from July 4th to opening day except for Erie tribs and lakes.

3. Better management of Class A's. No stocking, C&R only year round, and public education about the individual creeks and their significance. This could be signs posted at access points, websites, etc.

Those would be my three.

 

[FarmerDave]

krayfish2 wrote:

Zak wrote:
2. Fishing over spawning trout has little to no scientifically proven impact on a wild trout fishery.

I'm pretty sure there's data out there (and in the Maine study) that indicates increased mortality in spawning or post spawn fish that are hooked by anglers. If the mortality in spawning trout is 5% and it increased to 15% - 25% when anglers hook spawning / post spawn fish.....you are impacting the fishery....in a negative way. Picture the stress of spawning like you running a marathon. Just after crossing the finish line, you have to jump into the octagon for 5 round MMA fight. I imagine that's what it's like for the fish when being caught. It will take it's toll and my killing breeding age fish for my own selfish purpose isn't fair to the fishery or others.

If I were limited to 15 angling days a year for wild trout but those days were spent on streams filled with big naturally reproducing fish, it is worth it to me. I'd want everyone to have the same wonderful experience too.. I can spend the other days bass fishing of playing with the pellet heads.

I don't do the gemmies thing but can understand the gratifying feeling of catching a fish that is basically a work of art in beautiful surroundings. For me, the gratification comes from catching bigger wild fish in bigger water. Fooling them is only half the challenge..... landing them can be in an art in itself. It's part of my drive to share the Catskills with guys on here. History, challenge and big wild fish. I want them to give them the opportunity to have the same love for the area that I do. The selfish part is that they'll love the area and that just give more voices to help keep it protected.

Before you gemmie guys get all warm and fuzzy.....you still suck. LOL

1. C&R of a spawning or post span fish likely does increase the chance of that individual fish of dying, but that dies not equate to impacting the fishery. Plus, if it dies after it spawns, how does that effect anything other than give the offspring something to eat.

2. Your mortality numbers are likely on the low side especially with the larger fish. But I didn't look it up.

 

[moon1284]

FD- I don't agree with point 1. Trout spawn more than once and often after spawning males stay to protect the nest. Once they are dead, they are out of the gene pool. Eggs are an easy meal made easier by yanking spawned out fish from their redds and leaving the eggs unprotected.

 

[krayfish2]

Has anyone ever caught a fish during the spawn where the stress of the fight caused them to offload their eggs or milt? Probably. Have you gone back over 48 hour period to see if the fish died? Probably not.

Trying to be serious but autocorrect put MILF in place of milt. LMAO

 

[bigjohn58]

FarmerDave wrote:

1. C&R of a spawning or post span fish likely does increase the chance of that individual fish of dying, but that dies not equate to impacting the fishery. Plus, if it dies after it spawns, how does that effect anything other than give the offspring something to eat.

2. Your mortality numbers are likely on the low side especially with the larger fish. But I didn't look it up.

It is well known with smallmouth bass in the Susquehanna River that if caught during/directly after spawn this can be enough stress on them to have them die. If bass can die like this Not a lot die like this but some do. I'm 99% sure trout can die like this too.

 

[FarmerDave]

moon1284 wrote:
FD- I don't agree with point 1. Trout spawn more than once and often after spawning males stay to protect the nest. Once they are dead, they are out of the gene pool. Eggs are an easy meal made easier by yanking spawned out fish from their redds and leaving the eggs unprotected.

Well, you should.

1. Your first objection is somewhat false. Trout produce eggs and milt, once a year. They may make multiple reds, but it is still one spawn. Once done, they don't spawn again for another year, if they survive, and odds of that are maybe 50%. Bluegills and green sunfish on the other hand, do spawn multiple times a year. I think sea trout can spawn several times as well, Stream Trout? No. I could be wrong on that, but I'd need some evidence to support it.

2. Trout are territorial as we all know. Male trout protect the nest while it is being built by the female, and while they are making deposits. The male may even stick around for awhile waiting for the hen, or another hen to comes along, or simply because he just deposited a pretty good food source (they will eat their own prodigy). This is purely a territorial thing. The only effort made to protect the eggs, is when the female fans gravel over them (and possibly dislodging other eggs in the process).

And they do eat their own young.

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[FarmerDave]

krayfish2 wrote:
Has anyone ever caught a fish during the spawn where the stress of the fight caused them to offload their eggs or milt? Probably. Have you gone back over 48 hour period to see if the fish died? Probably not.

Trying to be serious but autocorrect put MILF in place of milt. LMAO

It's happened to me for steelhead.

Happened with perch caught through the ice, too.

But for stream trout? Nope never happened to me. I don't fish during the spawn.;-)

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I'm sure the native americans took a lot of this into account before they speared the trout.

 

[FarmerDave]

bigjohn58 wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:

1. C&R of a spawning or post span fish likely does increase the chance of that individual fish of dying, but that dies not equate to impacting the fishery. Plus, if it dies after it spawns, how does that effect anything other than give the offspring something to eat.

2. Your mortality numbers are likely on the low side especially with the larger fish. But I didn't look it up.

It is well known with smallmouth bass in the Susquehanna River that if caught during/directly after spawn this can be enough stress on them to have them die. If bass can die like this Not a lot die like this but some do. I'm 99% sure trout can die like this too.

I'm sure they do too. This is bad for that particular fish. But the real question is, does it have a measurable impact on next years brood?

Likely not. Again, it might for heavily fished streams, but the average stream? No.

Of the 20 eggs that might have survived to yoke stage, other eggs will survive in their place.

 

[bigjohn58]

FarmerDave wrote:

bigjohn58 wrote:

It is well known with smallmouth bass in the Susquehanna River that if caught during/directly after spawn this can be enough stress on them to have them die. If bass can die like this Not a lot die like this but some do. I'm 99% sure trout can die like this too.

I'm sure they do too. This is bad for that particular fish. But the real question is, does it have a measurable impact on next years brood?

Likely not. Again, it might for heavily fished streams, but the average stream? No.

Of the 20 eggs that might have survived to yoke stage, other eggs will survive in their place.

If the female dies right after it spawns from an angler it might not effect the spawn that year but what about the next year? She won't be around to produce anytime in the future and those eggs she just released are a long long ways from being able to contribute to future spawning. I still feel though that fishing pressure during the spawn is very minimal in the majority of streams due to other activities at that time of year. It should be unethical to fish for spawning trout and people should be bashed and harassed for it but I don't think they should close the season.

 

[FarmerDave]

bigjohn58 wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:

bigjohn58 wrote:

It is well known with smallmouth bass in the Susquehanna River that if caught during/directly after spawn this can be enough stress on them to have them die. If bass can die like this Not a lot die like this but some do. I'm 99% sure trout can die like this too.

I'm sure they do too. This is bad for that particular fish. But the real question is, does it have a measurable impact on next years brood?

Likely not. Again, it might for heavily fished streams, but the average stream? No.

Of the 20 eggs that might have survived to yoke stage, other eggs will survive in their place.

If the female dies right after it spawns from an angler it might not effect the spawn that year but what about the next year? She won't be around to produce anytime in the future and those eggs she just released are a long long ways from being able to contribute to future spawning. I still feel though that fishing pressure during the spawn is very minimal in the majority of streams due to other activities at that time of year. It should be unethical to fish for spawning trout and people should be bashed and harassed for it but I don't think they should close the season.

No measurable effect next year either unless there was a VERY limited number of females to begin with.

Besides, what's the point unless you are completely against fishing.

If one harvests, or incidentally kills a trout in April or May when the streams are crowded, it won't be spawning that fall either.

It would be nice if a biologist stepped in and splained all this, but they are probably too scared. ;-)