Improving Wild Trout Angling in PA

[ryansheehan]

krayfish2 wrote:
Ok, if you won't subscribe to closing and entire stream for 6 months and are fine with the one month closure.... would you accept spawning areas / tribs be closed to fishing until 4/1?

Ryan asked for an example in PA. There are none because PFBC doesn't manage that way. NY State does on the Delaware. You have almost 90 of trout water. All of it in NY shuts down. Only the PA border waters are open to fishing. So, it leaves about 33+ miles of the Delaware and all the BK (minus the special regs area) closed to angling. This allows mid river spawn and feeder spawns undisturbed. Guessing that only 10 miles of water provides fish for that entire system. It does work.

What's wrong with stockers over the winter? Plenty of places to fish for them. I'm talking the best of the best streams based on potential. Remember when spring used to have more than 6 fish over 10"?

Kray, I was thinking more of a stream in PA that you think would be helped by a closure, hypothetically. I guess I'm thinking of the streams I frequent where populations are high but size is low. I don't think a closure would have any good impact on such streams. I don't think it's a one size fits all where such a regulation would be imposed state wide. Off the top of my head I can't come up with any stream I feel would be greatly improved. However, I defintely could be convinced with some some evidence that stream quality would improve. I think water and weather conditions play a much bigger part in the spawn than fisherman. Just my dapinion.

 

[krayfish2]

The Esopus in NY....filled with wild bows. You can nymph up 50-100 fish a day if you are handy at nymphing. That river closes during the spawn. Neversink in NY filled with wild transient browns and bows.....closes over winter through the spawn. Beaverkill section at Horton....known thermal refuge where fish congregate to make it through the summer months. Closes July 1 no matter how good the temps might be and reopens on September 1. Again, hoards of wild fish.

This isn't a discussion about what YOU deserve to do or what your license $$ give you the right to do....it's about how to promote better fisheries for wild trout and how to protect them to reach their potential.

No offense Mike but firing in that post was of little to no value. I don't recall anyone stating that giant adult fish were needed for successful spawns. Favorable conditions and suitable habitat are probably bigger factors than the size of the fish involved in the spawning.

When the tread "Improving wild steelhead angling in PA" is started, then bringing steelhead into the conversation will be relevant. Until that point, it's just a redirection tactic.

Zak, fixed that post for ya...

There is absolutely zero scientific basis for not limiting fishing during the spawn. Negative angler impact on that process is a complete myth according to some and I have no data to support my position.

 

[ryansheehan]

So every wild trout stream in PA?

 

[krayfish2]

No sir. You'd have to have all of PFBC data to make the call on what gets closed or what stays open.

What is nothing short of amazing is the thread was asking for things to help improve wild trout fishing in PA. Options to protect / enhance wild trout fishing are provided but those ideas might inconvenience some......so that idea is no good, insane or whatever someone wants to label it. Isn't doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result the definition of insanity? LOL. I'm sure that I could dig up countless and high quality wild trout streams (in other states) where they close them to fishing during the spawn or for months at a time. If I'm not mistaken, Montana will close streams when the temperature becomes too warm to fish. Just another thing that we should consider on many streams in this state.

 

[PennKev]

moon1284 wrote:
1.) Close streams during spawning season - around 10/15 to 4/1
2.) End stocking on Class As
3.) Reduce limits on non-stocked waters to 1 trout between 14 and 18 inches

honorable mention - have catch and release limits (i.e. you can catch and release up to 50 trout per day then you must stop fishing). Not sure how you could enforce this, but NB has a catch and release limit for Atlantic Salmon

Couple things.

First I do not think anglers use during the "spawning period" can be linked directly to any issue with wild trout populations. Spring Creek gets trampled to death day in and day out all year and is still loaded with trout. If a critical spawning area or trib can be identified, then maybe a closure makes sense but only in a limited manner. Closing entire streams is not going to be popular and I don't think it's justified except as a gesture of "having to try something."

As for ending stocking on Class A's. well i think everyone is behind that, but as has been pointed out before, the amount of Class A water being stocked in relatively small albeit some very prominent streams are on that list. We need to stop stocking Class B's and I also think we need to stop stocking a lot of the little trickles in the NC region regardless of class.

Lastly, I would not want to see a slot limit of 14"-18" fish for wild trout streams. On most of our streams a wild trout larger than 14" would be among the largest. Here's a link to a PAFBC survey of Spring Creek:
2000 Spring Creek Survey The number of trout over 14" is miniscule compared to the hundreds of fish of smaller size. If you are going to go for a slot limit make it 9"-12" or something, but leave the 15"-18" alone.

 

[PennKev]

Brianh wrote:
I too like to fish all year but how can anyone argue after seeing the success of the upper Delaware watershed? Obviously the Oct - March closure has something to do with the quality of that wild trout fishery.

And yet Spring and LJR and Penns and Big Fishing and others are also loaded with fish but do not see closures.

What improvement is expected on these or any other stream by implementing seasonal closures? These are the streams with the most intense pressure and yet they are cranking out wild trout like crazy. Which PA streams would benefit from spawning season closures? Name them.

If anything, flow and temperature related closures make a heck of a lot more sense. The only trouble is that if we applied them the way a state like MT does, we could see continuous restrictions from May through Sept in many years.

 

[bigjohn58]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
"Do we really wanna encourage more people to fish for wild trout??"

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NO. But most on this site will disagree. They have some idea that all the popularization of fishing for wild trout will create this army of stream protectors and conservation minded friends of streams and fish. Crazy, unrealistic if you ask me. i suspect many have been sold a bill of goods by tackle manufacturers and fly shops etc....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is very hard to get across to a lot of these hardcore wild trout only guys. This isn't a perfect world. I am all for wild trout BUT there has to be compromise with the average angler who just goes to catch fish a few times a year and doesn't care what kind of trout they are. They are the ones contributing money to the PAFBC. They are the ones buying the most license. The fish commission has to do baby steps. Very small things on streams and I think they are maybe doing this. They did it on BFC by having immediate catch and release in the stocked class A water from Labor Day through February. This is great but now putting pressure on the stream outside the stocked area. Maybe in a year or two they put that reg on the entire stream. The PAFBC has decreased stocking or stopped stocking on some class A streams. I can remember when Drury Run was stocked by the PAFBC but no longer. They are doing baby steps. No way can they ignore the stock truck chasers who contribute the most to their income. Also maybe some more of these clubs who stock need to be watched more. They often somehow go and stock these small streams that no longer get stocked. Again I am all for these clubs (sportsmen clubs) that contribute to the stocking on streams like Kettle Creek and Lycoming Creek BUT they often end up stocking some of these small feeder streams that shouldn't be. People on this site though have to remember we are in the minority and when I say minority I bet 10% or even less of the license buyers.

 

[bigjohn58]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:
1. Support the PFBC's need for a license increase as well as finding a new, no-strings-attached, dependable funding stream so that they can continue to do the exceptional work they currently do for wild trout.

2. The PFBC should do everything in its power, and more if possible, to corral and stop gill lice before it becomes the "Chronic Wasting Disease" of our wild trout.

3. Reach out to our education system and have them teach kids that fishing is something you can do for the rest of your life while organized team sports typically end for almost everyone at the end of high school, if not before.

We are doing this...its called "trout in the classroom". They purchase brook trout eggs and raise them. Its teaching them that trout are raised by humans then stocked into a stream when done. I believe most of these trout raised in the classroom are stocked in class A water too. This is pretty much everything most on here are telling us shouldn't be done yet this is what is taught to the future in our high schools. Sounds like something is backwards here...

 

[troutbert]

3 things to improve wild trout populations?

1) End stocking over native brook trout.

Fix that one, then get back to me, I've got more. But, first things first.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

To be honest I just want to catch big whoppers. I place value on a big wild fish but I'll take big holdovers any day. I want whoppers.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

1. Water quality
2. Habitat (overlaps with 1)
3. alleviate low water- and thermal-induced stress (keep in mind the temps don't have to be lethal to negatively impact trout).

I am not convinced closing during the spawn, specially, would have a large effect. As PennKev pointed out many streams in my area are teaming with WT and do not close. As for the delaware experience- it is not clear closure during the spawn specifically is responsible. Closing during the spawn is a closure and reduce "hook ups" for a period of time over the entire year. To attribute it to closure during the spawn, the control experiment of closing it from April-June should be done. My predication is closure then would have a greater effect. And closing July-Aug would have the greatest effect.

I don't fish over spawning fish, but I do fish from time to time in that window. I know the streams in my area well enough to know where spawning occurs and where it does not. Not all sections of a stream support spawning. Some may respond that fish move. They normally do, but those in spawning mode do not. Unless I've been told (and observed) wrong.

 

[moon1284]

Keeping streams open during spawning season is a $$ decision, not a decision on what's best for the fishery. Remember the threads on 30" trout in PA caught in creeks that are 10' wide? There were plenty of comments like, this is a very tight window, maybe 2-3 weeks, etc. Does hooking a 30" trout while it is trying to spawn on ultra light spin tackle or a 4 weight fly rod (or even any tackle) help or hurt that fishery?

What good does it do to allow to people to fish for trout when they are most vulnerable? If you want larger trout increase creel more smaller fish. On top of everything else, a spawned out trout fights like you are bringing in a trash bag.

 

[Zak]

I thought it was clever how you changed my wording to suite your agenda. Remember, you're the one that wants the regs changed to suite your 6 month closer idea on trout fishing so the onus is on your to show us the scientific research proving that limiting fishing during the spawn showed a spike in trout numbers. Just because NY closes doesn't mean it improves thriving fisheries. It possibly just means that their biologists are extremely conservative. My feet aren't dug in the sand here though Kray. If in fact your position has scientific backing then I could see things in a different light. But the fact is that PA wild trout streams thrive despite fall angling pressure. Penns, Spring, LJ, and the little mountain tickles that feed them are all overflowing with wild trout. The 1000's of miles of Class A wild trout streams in the state are my 'data' to back my position and it's pretty darn strong.

 

[NewSal]

nymphingmaniac wrote:
1. Water quality
2. Habitat (overlaps with 1)

Yup, nothing could be more important to any living thing than the quality of there habitat and food sources.

 

[moon1284]

Here is a study:

https://www1.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/reports/pdfs/2001%20Hooking%20Mortality%20Study%20Final%20Report.pdf

I didnt have time to read the entire thing but this stuck out:

"Finally, there are many factors involved in determining
the effects of fall angling on salmonid broodstock. With
the initial information gathered in this observational
study, samples from “catch and release” feral populations
can be compared. There is likely room for some
fall angling for salmonids in the State of Maine. It
would be irresponsible to open all waters to fall angling.
There are too many unknowns, and the potential to substantially
injure a self sustaining feral salmonid population
is too great. "

 

[McSneek]

I fished Penns Creek once last December and don't think I harmed any fish or spawning beds. Returned in February I think and again, I doubt I did much damage, if any, to the YOY population. How many people are out actually trying to fish wild streams during normal winter weather? Considering the location of most of them many are inaccessible due to snow cover. Further fishing when temps aren't even above freezing isn't something a lot of people do.

Closing wild streams over the winter seems like it would be nothing more than a "feel good" move to me. With all due respect Kray,
how many people are going to fish those New York streams during
the winter anyhow?

I think I'm in the camp with the faction that says why do we need to increase angling for wild trout? Not sure there's anything wrong with the status quo.

 

[NickR]

PFBC places more value on stocked fish hence the closed season on Approved Trout Waters. It should be the other way around...there should be some sort of closed season on wild trout streams or at least on certain rivers or river sections. Wading down the center of a 10 foot creek you are bound to do damage to redds even if you "think" you see them. Not only are you unintentionally stepping on redds but you are spooking fish off the redds. I've seen people fishing over spawning trout numerous times. The average person doesn't care or doesn't know better IMO. Even if we just closed off trout from October 15th to November 15 I think that would be a huge win for the wild trout crowd. Why interfere with the process of what makes the fishery better?

I also think we should put hoot owl restrictions on trout streams that hold wild fish when water temps get too high. Like no fishing after 11 am or something of the sort like they do in Montana.

Oh and stop stocking over wild fish! Everybody keeps pointing to Montana as a prime example. We have plenty of streams here in PA where stocking ceased and the river exploded with wild fish. All stocking does is introduce fish with poor genetics into the river. Every year that goes without stocking those wild fish become stronger and stronger and the weak die off. The strong fish pass on their genetics.

 

[moon1284]

Nick R I agree

 

[Zak]

Again, show me the evidence that fishing during the spawn influence wild trout populations. We shouldn't care much if fishing during the spawn disturbs wild trout bumping uglies or if it messes with redds. Does is influence the overall population? That's all that matters. You don't make these decision on conjecture that you are 'bound to do damage to redds'. That may be true but is it impacting the trout fishery? Of course nobody wants redds to be messed with but if the wild trout population is robust and the fishing is excellent then where's the issue? Where is the proof that not wading or fishing in the fall will increase the number of trout in a stream? If it's not out there then in reality some messed up redds don't really matter to me and shouldn't really matter in the decision making process of the PAFBC.

 

[bigjohn58]

NickR wrote:
Oh and stop stocking over wild fish! Everybody keeps pointing to Montana as a prime example. We have plenty of streams here in PA where stocking ceased and the river exploded with wild fish. All stocking does is introduce fish with poor genetics into the river. Every year that goes without stocking those wild fish become stronger and stronger and the weak die off. The strong fish pass on their genetics.

See I'm not seeing the issue of stocking over wild fish if the stream is large enough to support stocking. Penns gets stocked, BFC the lower portion gets stocked. Their wild trout genes are some of the best you can find. BFC only gets stocked with rainbow trout and occasionally some brook trout. They will not stock browns because of the potential crossover in genes.

Stocking though in small streams that have native brook trout should stop. The stocked trout have little chance of survival and get caught out so quickly and easily. Basically throwing them in a small pool or bathtub is a joke. I always felt sorry for the native brookies in those situations. You also know if there is a legal sized brookie in any of those holes and it gets caught its going on a stringer after a stocking. Just sad!