High water mark?

I haven't been on that stretch in a long time. From what I remember, it is difficult, because of the vegetation "management" and the man-made alterations to the bank.
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well those are conservation issues. If Riparian buffers are conservatiion.

Anyway, there is a term called "bank full" that indicated where the stream volume extends to during an approximate 1-2 year flood event. You know your basic gully washer. I would wager this to be your high water mark. The term is used extensively in the Natural Stream Channel Design circles, (not to derail the thread). But my understanding is that of Afish's explanation where if the stream is entrenched meaning there is a slope to the flood plain on the point bar edge (inside of a bend) no matter how gradual the bend is, then the Bank Full mark is typically about 50-80% up the bank depending on the lay of the land. There are all sorts of indicators like wetland plants, pebble size distribution, etc that definitively indicate the Bank full elevation.

My point is, The waters edge on a point bar is BY NO MEANS the high water mark in any stretch of the imagination. The position of those signs and the "enforcement" of them is bullying.

So I agree with Afish, walk about 2/3 of the way up the slope to the flood plain and you will be at the high water mark.
 
afishinado wrote:
Troutbert,

I fished and waded along Espy's last week, and was with Jay and a few others when the confrontation occurred. When you described in an earlier post the vertical break from the stream channel to the edge of the floodplain a light went on. There is a definite change of slope maybe a 45* angle +/- that's grassy and 3-4' in width leading up to the area that flattens out into the floodplain / private property. The high water mark became clear to me after I read your explanation.

Now if we can only get the PFBC & law enforcement to read your post, we would be in business. Bottom line the guy (called "Centerpinner" by the Beaver guys) was below the high water mark even though his feet were on dry ground......IMO.
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From your description, I agree that he was within the channel and therefore legal.
 
Let me know if that's visible. He's actually standing in the same position in that picture.
 
I found this video on determining the bankfull stage (high water mark) on eastern streams. It's 45 minutes long, very interesting if you have the time. The video is a just a more detailed explanation of what Troutbert posted.

http://www.stream.fs.fed.us/publications/bankfull_east.html

Here is a FAQ's on the legal OWNERSHIP (not easement) by all citizens of the rivers and streams deemed navigable.

http://www.adventuresports.com/river/nors/us-law-rights.htm
 
jayL wrote:
http://image74.webshots.com/174/6/35/2/2232635020091722017GzlSQX_fs.jpg

Let me know if that's visible. He's actually standing in the same position in that picture.
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Jay, I clicked the link but couldn't view the photo. I got a "Forbidden' message.
 
Just so you guys know - the Beav has driven rebar stakes in to mark his turf before, and the judge made him remove them as they were not on his property. Sounds like he's up to his old tricks again.

FWIW - his neighbors really dislike him. The guy that owns the house that borders the downstream side of the junction of the J and Spruce Creek told me he plans on putting a walkway (complete with a sign welcoming fishermen) from the road, down to the river so the fishermen can access the Espy water without being harassed by the Great Conservationist. Even if he hasn't done so yet, you could always knock on his door and ask permission to walk across his lawn. Beats getting hassled.

If you think you've been treated unfairly there, go talk to Alan at Spruce Creek Outfitters and tell him about it. He'll know exactly what to do about it.
 
I brightened Jay's pic and focused on the non-wading angler, then drew my interpretation of the likely high water mark. looks like he may be on private property to me.
 
Ed,

I don't know if it's the same landowner you're talking about, but the house across the street from the shop allows anglers to walk on his sidewalk through the corner of his yard onto the River. Allan tells fishermen that stop into the shop that it's okay. Just FYI.
 
afishinado wrote:
No Jack, more like this:
Click to expand...

My interpretation as well. When coupled with the rebar signs higher up on the bank, it was very reasonable to assume that he was perfectly legal in standing there. I interpret the above comments as supporting that assumption.
 
From the photo, I'd say the angler is really pushing the line.

The second orange line drawn appears to be drawn at the MMMWL (Mean Mid-May Weedtop Level.)

Sorry for using the technical terminology. :)
 
Look for signs of erosion...I would think below any signs of erosion would be ok...any reason to think otherwise. Can't have erosion if the water doesn't get up there...
 
Based on what was said in those videos explaining bankfull, I would say the the high water mark in that photo is where the bank starts to level off. In the area where the person is walking, it looks like the bank starts to level off farely close to the water's edge. To me it looks like that guy is closer to the high water mark than what some people may think.

TYoung
 
I agree that he's close. His head is even above it. From where he was standing, I interpreted the HWM to be around his knees. It's a game of inches, I guess.
 
All well and good, but what about going up on the flood plain to get toa secondary channel? And to make sure we cover everything, there is something in navigability law that says if a river or stream is navigable, landowners have to provide access, or at least not block access. This came up in a case where a casino wanted to develop a section of land along the Delaware R.
Just about every stream that I fish has vegetation below the OHWM.
 
I would agree with Jack's interpretation of the OHWM, and would say that Afish has identified the Bankfull Discharge Elevation. Unless I am entirely mistaken, Bankfull is a measure of the stream's discharge just prior to its leaving its channel and accessing its floodplain. It is helpful to think of the OHWM as the water surface elevation of the stream during normal runoff each spring. The stream likely acheives its OHWM elevation several times during a typical rainfall year. This regular sweeping clears away the terrestrial vegetation from the wetted portion of the channel before the plants can become well established, but does not remove aquatic vegetation which is adapted to stream flow conditions. Bankfull discharges are stronger flows than those associated with OHW. Bankfull is strong enough to move bedload and forms the channel, moving it this way and that. As Mo pointed out, the frequency of Bankfull is more on the order of a 1.5 to 2 year storm event. OHWM is a regulatory definition, whereas Bankfull Discharge is more of an engineering term. As a general rule, if you are walking on loose, mostly unvegetated cobble or gravel, you are most likely below the OHWM. In the photo, the guy wading in the middle of the stream is obviously ok, but the guy up on the bank standing in the vegetation is likely above the OHWM.
 
Wouldn't just be effin' simple to keep your feet in the water? Then, in fact, you would be legal??
 
Sounds effin simple, but not always so. I've had times when one step off shore, it's over your waders. While that's uncommon, bankside brush is VERY common, where you can't wade around via water due to depth, and the only way around is by land.
 
jsjigs ,

I hope u wear a life jacket when fishing ..lol

On a very important side note Alan at spruce creek outfitter went to bat legaly against the Beav and spent ALOT of his own money to do so. Next time your in the area enjoying the "open" water on the J stop and spend a little bit of money and thank him for it !!!
 
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