High End Rods

[NRD]

Having come down with the hot running wants for a 10' 4wt, I've been visiting all the major rod builder web sites recently.

My question is: How much performance difference is there between entry level, mid grade, and high end rods?

Maybe it depends on what kind of person is doing the casting? I have a strong appreciation for high quality tools. I view the act of casting as part of the enjoyment of fly fishing. I'm also hesitant to part with $1000 for a fly rod. I can, but I need to understand why I should want to.

Maybe it depends on how I want to fish? I want to nymph till a hatch starts, then cast dry flies without carrying two rods. Not strictly tight lining.
I spend a significant portion of my time with my back to a wall, needing to roll or one hand Spey cast.

Last year, only 10 weeks into my fly fishing experience, a friend let me use his ~10 year old top end Sage 9' 5wt for a morning. I told him it was wonderful, but honestly couldn't discern the difference between it and my new Orvis Clearwater 9' 5 wt. By the end of the summer, with 4 more rods of my own (at least 1 too many) I was getting a feel for what I liked more or less. I'd also discovered I don't learn much by yard casting. My yard says keep the 7' 3 wt Hardy Demon. The creek says keep the 7'-9' 3 wt IMX Pro Creek.

Do top end rod designs trickle down to become mid grade rods as the state of the art advances? So like, how does today's Recon compare to the older Helios 2? I just watched a Helios 2 sell for $660 on EBAY when I can buy a new Recon with a warranty for $550. Normally warranties don't factor into my purchasing decisions, but these things are fragile.

 

[afishinado]

Having come down with the hot running wants for a 10' 4wt, I've been visiting all the major rod builder web sites recently.

My question is: How much performance difference is there between entry level, mid grade, and high end rods?

Maybe it depends on what kind of person is doing the casting? I have a strong appreciation for high quality tools. I view the act of casting as part of the enjoyment of fly fishing. I'm also hesitant to part with $1000 for a fly rod. I can, but I need to understand why I should want to.

Maybe it depends on how I want to fish? I want to nymph till a hatch starts, then cast dry flies without carrying two rods. Not strictly tight lining.
I spend a significant portion of my time with my back to a wall, needing to roll or one hand Spey cast.

Last year, only 10 weeks into my fly fishing experience, a friend let me use his ~10 year old top end Sage 9' 5wt for a morning. I told him it was wonderful, but honestly couldn't discern the difference between it and my new Orvis Clearwater 9' 5 wt. By the end of the summer, with 4 more rods of my own (at least 1 too many) I was getting a feel for what I liked more or less. I'd also discovered I don't learn much by yard casting. My yard says keep the 7' 3 wt Hardy Demon. The creek says keep the 7'-9' 3 wt IMX Pro Creek.

Do top end rod designs trickle down to become mid grade rods as the state of the art advances? So like, how does today's Recon compare to the older Helios 2? I just watched a Helios 2 sell for $660 on EBAY when I can buy a new Recon with a warranty for $550. Normally warranties don't factor into my purchasing decisions, but these things are fragile.

The only way to answer your question is to cast a bunch of rods. You are looking to buy a 10' 4wt rod (that length and weight is my favorite trout stick) but you should cast as many different rods as you can before you choose. Especially since you are thinking about laying down a huge amount of cash for your rod. Plus different rod weights and lengths have a different feel. In other words, you may like Brand X rods, but their 10 4wt is a dog. Make sure you find the right one for you.

To answer the second part of your question, buying a high-end rod is no guarantee it will perform better in your hand vs another more moderately priced rod. The more rods you cast, the better chance you will have to choose the best rod for your casting and fishing. Good luck.

 

[NRD]

Well, to be clear, I'm open to buying a top end rod, but I'm trying to determine if they are truly justified.
You seem to be saying : Not all of them.
I'd be more comfortable buying a mid range rod, but not all of the top tier manufacturers offer a 10' 4wt in their mid range rods. I guess I could just buy a Recon, DXF, and Zone, fish them all and sell 2 of them to the suckers on EBAY.
SO, afishinado, exactly which 10' 4 wt are you fishing? Do you wish you had a different one?

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Just as important as how the rod feels for you might be matching the right line to the rod for the intended purpose. Will you be carrying multiple spools or reels, as in one for nymphs and one for dry flies?

 

[NRD]

Yes, I have multiple reels with lines in 3,4,5 wts. Also, I like playing with different lines. Early results suggest I like overlined rods.

 

[Vtsalmon]

So I have found that just casting a rod it is still hard to determine how it will perform on the water for a day of fishing . Hopefully you can find a shop with a casting pond and can test said rod with dry fly, nymph setup , Indicator setup . Then you can roll cast , single hand Spey cast , and over hand cast it . With setups you might use . High end rods you are paying for technology, and the materials for making blanks, plus labor, components, and everything else that is involved in a rod factory. Yes technology does trickle down to mid priced rods as material gets cheaper , some times the blank taper might be the same just lower end materials and components. Just remember a $1000.00 rod will not catch you more fish than $50.00 rod . Confedence is what catches fish

 

[poopdeck]

To answer your question, for me, there is very little performance difference between entry, mid and high end rods. So little that it makes no sense, from a performance stand point, to spend a grand or even 500 on a rod. i Think the expense of a rod has little no Fishing value. I never met a rod I couldn’t cast and thankfully I’ve been born with no ability to feel what the talking heads say they feel in a rod. I try keep my rod purchases under 250 even though I could spend whatever I wanted on a rod. Just makes no sense to me.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I tend to agree with many/most of the other responses. In fairness, I don't own any $1000 rods, nor have I fished with them. I have fished with $500 and $600 rods as well as many rods in the $100-250 range and personally, I don't see enough difference to justify the additional cost IF money was a consideration. If on the other hand, you have a fishing budget and you can easily afford a nice rod, then I can see gaining some personal enjoyment from treating yourself to something really nice.

I also just built my first split bamboo rod. It's not fancy and I'm sure I made mistakes, but I'd presume that a similar rod would probably cost me close to a grand if I searched for one from the commercial makers (all of whom are admittedly far more experienced at building rods than I am). From the pure casting/fishing ability of the rod, I'd have a hard time justifying paying that much more than for a $200 graphite rod to accomplish the same thing, BUT I have thoroughly enjoyed fishing with it, so if I hadn't built one myself, if I had $1000 burning a hole in my pocket and if I happened upon a really cool looking split bamboo rod, I might be able to justify that kind of expense just because I think they're cool and I wanted one.

 

[pcray1231]

I have a few high end rods and like em. I've cast a few I hated. I have a few cheaper rods I like as well. My experience is that the bottom barrel, sub 100 dollar beginner crap is truly crap. But once you get over abotu the $150 mark, price becomes a poor predictor of how well I'll like it. I very well may love a $200 rod and hate a $600 one.

I am not a taper person, I have no idea of why I like the rods I like. I know I generally like rods others describe as fast action. I like a lot of backbone. I tend to overpower my casts and am not a fan of rods described as "finesse" or "delicate", am a thunderstick kind of guy. A finesse rod friend says I like broomsticks. But I dunno, it should still feel smooth, and it should still load just fine at close distance with a good feel. I can pick up two rods and cast them back to back and say I like that one better.

It is 100% personal preference. I think in general better materials, higher modulus graphite, etc. They are more expensive. And yes, they allow the rod designer more leeway to get the feel he is designing for. But..... You still have to like the feel he is trying to design for. If he's designing a feel that doesn't suit you personally, you'll spend a lot of money on a rod you don't like, when you'd have been perfectly happy with a rod half that price designed for what you like.

In the end though, I can fish just fine with a rod I don't like. I don't catch less fish because of it. I will generally not spend a ton on a rod, I'll find something cheaper I like ok, and the money is better spent on other equipment which will actually catch me more fish.

 

[afishinado]

Well, to be clear, I'm open to buying a top end rod, but I'm trying to determine if they are truly justified.
You seem to be saying : Not all of them.
I'd be more comfortable buying a mid range rod, but not all of the top tier manufacturers offer a 10' 4wt in their mid range rods. I guess I could just buy a Recon, DXF, and Zone, fish them all and sell 2 of them to the suckers on EBAY.
SO, afishinado, exactly which 10' 4 wt are you fishing? Do you wish you had a different one?

I've casted $1000 rods I hated and $200 rods I loved and vice versa. So the moral of the story is.....judge rods by how they work for you rather than assuming a more expensive rod is a better rod for you. It's an individual thing. Think of it like buying a car or truck. You test drive them first for how it drives, handles, rides, feels, looks and choose the best one for you. Yes any one of these vehicles can get you from point A to point B but if you spend all that money, why wouldn't you try to find one that you actually like to drive?

Don't spend good money on a rod you don't really like to fish (that's why there are so many "lawn casted only", "only fished twice" rods advertised for sale). Find a rod you really like and keep it around for a while. You'll actually save money by not having to rod shop every other year for a "better" rod. All I'm say is take your time, hit a few fly shops that carry different rods, maybe cast or fish your buddy's rods before you pull the trigger on a rod you see pictured online or one that Joe angler fishes and likes.

You asked what 10' 4wt I fish. It's an Orvis H2. But that's just me (Joe Angler). Like Pcray wrote above, I too am a faster rod type of guy. This rod works for me for all the types of fishing I do. But, you may not like that particular rod at all. Good luck on your search.

 

[kbobb]

What do you want the rod to do? Will a high end rod do things a lesser priced rod won't do for you, in your hands?
Casting the rod at a store is one thing but on the water, actually fishing, will really show the difference, if any.
Also - I have a 10' 4 wt built on a Pac Bay Quickline blank - it throws a nice line and can lob a double nymph rig with shot and a bobber, but I find the use limited to bigger water with longer casts. It's kinda too much rod for the average trout stream - at least for me. Is there a difference between this and a Sage, T&T, Orvis, etc - probably but is a 10% performance increase worth a 400% cost increase? Not for what I use it for.

 

[afishinado]

What do you want the rod to do? Will a high end rod do things a lesser priced rod won't do for you, in your hands?
Casting the rod at a store is one thing but on the water, actually fishing, will really show the difference, if any.
Also - I have a 10' 4 wt built on a Pac Bay Quickline blank - it throws a nice line and can lob a double nymph rig with shot and a bobber, but I find the use limited to bigger water with longer casts. It's kinda too much rod for the average trout stream - at least for me. Is there a difference between this and a Sage, T&T, Orvis, etc - probably but is a 10% performance increase worth a 400% cost increase? Not for what I use it for.

Choosing a rod is not really about "performance increase". I'm sure all of those rods you mentioned above "perform" well....but for who? What you should be looking for is the rod that hits the sweet spot for the type of fishing one does as well as the type of caster they are at the time?

I've worked with thousands of casters when I worked at a fly shop and almost none are exactly the same. Add that fact, along with where and how they fish, and throw in the variable of which line to choose for that type of FFing. Plus a relative new angler is likely to change or develop as they gain experience. That's why there's so many hardly used rods out there being sold.

The best one can do is to find a rod that does a decent job for where and how one fishes. At some point one will gravitate towards certain rod types and be able to more easily hone on what type rod works best. Further along, many FFers branch off and seek out specialty rods for different types of waters, techniques and fish species they pursue. And on and on and on..... But if you choose well in the beginning, you will have a stick you enjoy fishing for a long time to come and not constantly be searching for that holy grail rod (it really doesn't exist).

I disagree with those above that say choosing the right rod will not catch you more fish. Take for example a limp noodle of a rod that can't cast streamers when that's what needed on the stream, or a rod that nymphs well, but won't cast a dry worth a damn during a hatch will surely limit you as a FFer....and you will catch less fish!

 

[JeffK]

Good advice here. Many high end rods are designed to maximize distance - which is something most of us trout fishermen don't need. However, to get peak distance your timing and stroke need to be just so and high end long distance rods can be finicky to cast. Many "beginner" rods are designed to be forgiving to cast accurately at moderate distances, which is something I still like. I like softer rods in general which are more forgiving. High end rods also can be lighter - but modern composites are all so light that a little lighter doesn't matter to me. Finally, higher end rods have better fit, finish, and cosmetics - which isn't all important to the most of us. However, need some quality so don't go too cheap.

 

[Bamboozle]

It's all been said but

Having come down with the hot running wants for a 10' 4wt...Normally warranties don't factor into my purchasing decisions, but these things are fragile.

Choosing a rod and the implication that $$$ buys you happiness has already has been eloquently stated by others, however don't get hung up warranties as you are basically paying in advance for a ROD, but not necessarily repairs on YOUR rod.

Case in point:

I own more than a few rods as the original owner and those rods WHEN I BOUGHT THEM had a warranty that would have ONLY cost me inbound freight to get warranty service.

Fast forward to today...

ALL of the manufacturers these days have some kind of handling fee for a warranty claim, so IN ADDITION to extra up-front money I pi$$ed away when I bought them, now I would have to fork over additional $$$ for a warranty claim.

If that's not bad enough... one of the builders of some of my rods retired, another moved on to different blanks, which means there isn't a chance in Hades I could get MY rods repaired and the other major manufacturer who I have a ton of rods from, discontinued every rod series I own.

What this all boils down to is; if I bust one of the rods I adore, all I'll get in exchange for the "handling fee" and the up-front warranty money I forked over is some newfangled super-fast monstrosity with an uplocking reelseat that I know I'll hate.

In the meantime, I've sent 70 year old bamboo rods that I paid a few $100 bucks for back to Orvis for repairs and what they charge is less than what an up-front warranty, shipping and a "handling charge" would have cost me for "insurance"...

Moral of the story, unless you plan on sticking to the man by deliberately busting your rod every three years... don't hesitate for a millisecond to buy a rod WITHOUT a warranty.

Have fun choosing!

 

[redietz]

I disagree with those above that say choosing the right rod will not catch you more fish. Take for example a limp noodle of a rod that can't cast streamers when that's what needed on the stream, or a rod that nymphs well, but won't cast a dry worth a damn during a hatch will surely limit you as a FFer....and you will catch less fish!

Which actually brings up the question of whether it's better to have one high end all round rod (and Jack of all trades is master of none) or two more specialized mid-range rods. If I'm planning on fishing streamers, for example, I prefer to use a rod dedicated to that purpose.

 

[Steeltrap]

I've fished with an Orvis Encounter rod. It toss's fly's and sometimes it puts the fly where you want it. I fished with a guide service the Orvis Recon fly rods and found casting and hitting the aim point was superior to the cheap Encounter.

A few years ago my wife bought me a Helious setup. I've never fished a fly rod that cast so consistently accurate as that rod.

So, the $200 I spent on the Encounter will maybe be ok for when my grandchildren are old enough to try the sport.

I looked at the $600 Recon setups and I was going to buy that.....but then my wife spent the additional $400 on the premium rod and I've got no complaints.

 

[Clams]

If you're just getting started and have extra cash to spend, I think you're better off using it on good waders, boots, packs/slings/vests, etc. Your gear will get used hard, and the difference between entry level gear and good gear is huge. That's not always the case with less expensive rods vs higher end ones.

 

[GANGGREEN]

If you're just getting started and have extra cash to spend, I think you're better off using it on good waders, boots, packs/slings/vests, etc. Your gear will get used hard, and the difference between entry level gear and good gear is huge. That's not always the case with less expensive rods vs higher end ones.

Personally, I think this is very good advice. We all have our own ideas and we're all entitled to spend our hard-earned money anyway that we wish, but I think you'll get more bang for your buck by purchasing mid-lower end stuff and getting all of the gear that you need.

 

[Millsertime]

NRD....What make/model rods do you currently have and what is the rod you like the most and the least?

 

[SBecker]

Well, to be clear, I'm open to buying a top end rod, but I'm trying to determine if they are truly justified.
You seem to be saying : Not all of them.
I'd be more comfortable buying a mid range rod, but not all of the top tier manufacturers offer a 10' 4wt in their mid range rods. I guess I could just buy a Recon, DXF, and Zone, fish them all and sell 2 of them to the suckers on EBAY.
SO, afishinado, exactly which 10' 4 wt are you fishing? Do you wish you had a different one?

As someone who LOVES a good 10ft 4wt, I have settled on a Sage One. Just my 2 cents.