Habitat projects

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I've stated at least twice why I volunteered the native brook trout number.

I've never said that there aren't any wild browns in Bobs Creek (or Wallacks Branch Creek) or even that there are not a lot of them.

My fishing statistics ARE very valuable. One member on this site once compared spinner fishing to electroshocking. For example, if I were so minded I could tell everyone the farthest point upstream that I've caught wild brown trout in Bells Gap Run and its six tributaries above the reservoir that have fishable populations of trout. I bet it would surprise a lot of people who think they know the stream. However, since I'm against this project I have zero intention of doing so.
The point of this thread is about an apparent decline in brook trout numbers (and increase in brown trout numbers) on Bob’s creek and Wallacks branch over the last 30 years and how these outdated projects may have contributed. A theory backed by recent science (https://doi.org/10.1111/rec.13678) on the subject. The projects employed there are not best practices (https://doi.org/10.1002/rra.3798).

You appear to be refuting that and unwilling to share why you disagree. Care to enlighten us on why you think this is a mischaracterization of the streams and why the concept of the habitat projects possibly playing a role is “inaccurate?”

Or did you just come onto a fly fishing forum to espouse the effectiveness of spin fishing again?
 
Jealousy has nothing to do with it. I just think it's absurd.
I accept the fact that you think that counting trout and keeping statistics is absurd. I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks this. But it does raise the question, if you think it's absurd, how did you know that you caught 68 brown trout and one native brook trout in 3.50 hours (3:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.) on Bobs Creek a year ago or whenever it was starting near Cox's Monument and fishing upstream?

By the way, several years ago there was a thread on this site where nearly everyone was slamming me for counting the trout I catch, similar to how a few are doing here. An outsider reading the thread would have thought that none of the fly anglers on this site count their trout.

Funny thing, about two weeks later someone started a topic about placing friendly bets and such with fishing buddies while fishing on who would catch the most. Lots of fly anglers chimed in. An outsider reading that topic would have thought most fly anglers count their trout.

I can't tell you how hard I laughed.
 
The point of this thread is about an apparent decline in brook trout numbers (and increase in brown trout numbers) on Bob’s creek and Wallacks branch over the last 30 years and how these outdated projects may have contributed. A theory backed by recent science (https://doi.org/10.1111/rec.13678) on the subject. The projects employed there are not best practices (https://doi.org/10.1002/rra.3798).

You appear to be refuting that and unwilling to share why you disagree. Care to enlighten us on why you think this is a mischaracterization of the streams and why the concept of the habitat projects possibly playing a role is “inaccurate?”

Or did you just come onto a fly fishing forum to espouse the effectiveness of spin fishing again?
Another veiled personal attack...
 
I accept the fact that you think that counting trout and keeping statistics is absurd. I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks this. But it does raise the question, if you think it's absurd, how did you know that you caught 68 brown trout and one native brook trout in 3.50 hours (3:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.) on Bobs Creek a year ago or whenever it was starting near Cox's Monument and fishing upstream?

By the way, several years ago there was a thread on this site where nearly everyone was slamming me for counting the trout I catch, similar to how a few are doing here. An outsider reading the thread would have thought that none of the fly anglers on this site count their trout.

Funny thing, about two weeks later someone started a topic about placing friendly bets and such with fishing buddies while fishing on who would catch the most. Lots of fly anglers chimed in. An outsider reading that topic would have thought most fly anglers count their trout.

I can't tell you how hard I laughed.
I counted trout on that specific outing to provide to PFBC. I don’t normally do it, but did on that particular day to provide it to someone at PFBC about this exact subject.

I’m not an actuary and don’t fish to count fish. It’s not my thing. I think you try awful hard to convince folks that spin fishing is more effective than fly fishing as if that’s even questionable. Like semi automatic rifles fire more projectiles than flintlocks. I hunt with flintlocks too. I’ve hunted doves with single shot 20 gauges even though I know a semi automatic might give me an advantage.

To me, my time afield isn’t in pursuit of putting up numbers or doing things the most efficient way. You brought your numbers into the discussion.
 
Certainly none that TU had anything to do with!
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This jackdam was built over forty years ago by the Blair County Chapter of TU. I fished here on March 22, 2023, and caught a 5.5" wild brown below the jackdam and a 13" wild brown right above it.
 
I've already answered this.
No you haven’t. Here, I’ll ask again.

The point of this thread is about an apparent decline in brook trout numbers (and increase in brown trout numbers) on Bob’s creek and Wallacks branch over the last 30 years and how these outdated projects may have contributed. A theory backed by recent science (https://doi.org/10.1111/rec.13678) on the subject. The projects employed there are not best practices (https://doi.org/10.1002/rra.3798).

You appear to be refuting that and unwilling to share why you disagree. Care to enlighten us on why you think this is a mischaracterization of the streams and why the concept of the habitat projects possibly playing a role is “inaccurate?”
 
This:
During the course of the study, numerous jack dams were found to be in a state of decline and actually inhibiting fish movement. The purpose of this project will be to improve trout movement throughout Wallacks Branch. This will be achieved by removing jack dams that are impeding fish migration and installing functioning fish habitat structures.
And this:
In addition, watersheds surrounding Wallacks Branch and Bob’s Creek have reduced numbers of brook trout, and in some instances, brook trout have been extirpated.
Are two things I’ve said that Frank has characterized as mischaracterizations without a shred of evidence to back up his claims.
 
there never would have been all those deep incised plunge pools the structures mimic
I agree with doing REAL restoration, rather than "stream carpentry." Reconnecting streams to their floodplains, removing constraints to channel movement, restoring normal amounts of large woody debris, all that good stuff.

But doing so will result in formation of deep pools. Deep pools are formed by natural processes. Including plunge pools, formed where the water drops over large woody debris creating deep plunge pools. And pools are formed at the outsides of meander bends. And confluence pools are formed where secondary channels rejoin the main channels.

In similar streams where some degree of natural stream/floodplain structure and functioning exists, I've seen many pools that are 3 feet deep, and some that are 4 feet deep or more. It is normal for these types of streams to form such pools.

Many people think that freestone streams are "naturally shallow." They're WRONG, to put it plainly. The reason they think that's normal is because it so common for these streams to be dominated by shallow habitat. But it's so common because the streams have been so highly altered, in ways that inhibit pool-forming processes.

If these streams were restored in the ways that you propose, I totally agree with that. But just understand that that will result in large, deep pools with lots of overhead cover. That would result in the streams supporting a high biomass of trout, bringing it up closer to what existed pre-disturbance.

In mixed population streams, the brown trout will dominate the best holding water i.e. the places with the highest quality pools and cover. We all know that.

But real restoration would not only create large pools, it would also create a wide range of complex habitat. This would include smaller pools, pocket-water, shallow water with heavy cover, multiple channels, beaver dams, etc. Much of this habitat would benefit brook trout.

In streams that hold only brook trout, the most biomass of brook trout and the largest individuals are in the best holding water, where there are pools and overhead cover. The large deep pools and good overhead cover are very beneficial to the brook trout populations in these streams.

On much of the freestone brook trout stream mileage the difference between the stream supporting 10 kg/ha and 60 kg/ha of brook trout comes down to holding water, i.e. DEPTH AND COVER.

There is a NC PA brookie stream that I've fished a fair bit. The PFBC rates it as Class C, which is quite low. Their report says it's an infertile freestone stream. But that is not why it has such a low population. Most of the stream has very shallow habitat. Not for natural reasons, it's from man-made disturbances. But there is one section, only about 1/3 mile long, that has quite good habitat. And that section is loaded with brook trout, including nice ones of 8-9 inches. If they surveyed just that section it would surely be Class A. There is nothing wrong with the water quality. There are decent numbers of aquatic insects. The difference is the physical habitat.

One of the best ways to realize the extreme importance of pool habitat is to walk small freestone streams during severe droughts. Often the pools are the only place with water. The stretches between the pools are dry. The only place they can survive the drought is in the pools.
 
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I agree with doing REAL restoration, rather than "stream carpentry." Reconnecting streams to their floodplains, removing constraints to channel movement, restoring normal amounts of large woody debris, all that good stuff.

But doing so will result in formation of deep pools. Deep pools are formed by natural processes. Including plunge pools, formed where the water drops over large woody debris creating deep plunge pools. And pools are formed at the outsides of meander bends. And confluence pools are formed where secondary channels rejoin the main channels.

In similar streams where some degree of natural stream/floodplain structure and functioning exists, I've seen many pools that are 3 feet deep, and some that are 4 feet deep or more. It is normal for these types of streams to form such pools.

Many people think that freestone streams are "naturally shallow." They're WRONG, to put it plainly. The reason they think that's normal is because it so common for these streams to be dominated by shallow habitat. But it's so common because the streams have been so highly altered, in ways that inhibit pool-forming processes.

If these streams were restored in the ways that you propose, I totally agree with that. But just understand that that will result in large, deep pools with lots of overhead cover. That would result in the streams supporting a high biomass of trout, bringing it up closer to what existed pre-disturbance.

In mixed population streams, the brown trout will dominate the best holding water i.e. the places with the highest quality pools and cover. We all know that.

But real restoration would not only create large pools, it would also create a wide range of complex habitat. This would include smaller pools, pocket-water, shallow water with heavy cover, multiple channels, beaver dams, etc. Much of this habitat would benefit brook trout.

In streams that hold only brook trout, the most biomass of brook trout and the largest individuals are in the best holding water, where there are pools and overhead cover. The large deep pools and good overhead cover are very beneficial to the brook trout populations in these streams.

On much of the freestone brook trout stream mileage the difference between the stream supporting 10 kg/ha and 60 kg/ha of brook trout comes down to holding water, i.e. DEPTH AND COVER.

There is a NC PA brookie stream that I've fished a fair bit. The PFBC rates it as Class C, which is quite low. Their report says it's an infertile freestone stream. But that is not why it has such a low population. Most of the stream has very shallow habitat. Not for natural reasons, it's from man-made disturbances. But there is one section, only about 1/3 mile long, that has quite good habitat. And that section is loaded with brook trout, including nice ones of 8-9 inches. If they surveyed just that section it would surely be Class A. There is nothing wrong with the water quality. There are decent numbers of aquatic insects. The difference is the physical habitat.

One of the best ways to realize the extreme importance of pool habitat is to walk small freestone streams during severe droughts. Often the pools are the only place with water. The stretches between the pools are dry. The only place they can survive the drought is in the pools.
Great points. I’d only say that I think (sorry to speak for FS), what he was trying to say, is that the pool habitat wouldn’t exist at the frequency and type that it does in manmade form. A lot of that is because they built huge rock wings to force the stream into a channel and prevent connectivity with the floodplain.

Also, I suspect he might have been thinking more about Wallacks. Pools like were created (and subsequently torn out) on Wallacks were very out of place on that little stream.
 
Can anyone point me to any stream improvement projects that are ten years old or older that have actually worked?
When I worked with TU over a summer, we surveyed some sections in the Kettle creek watershed that had undergone habitat improvements throughout the years. Some of them were at least 10 years old and it was always obvious when we came upon one because there would be an explosion of fish in the water. Most structures were still working as intended and a good number were providing some of the best habitat on the stream.
 
When I worked with TU over a summer, we surveyed some sections in the Kettle creek watershed that had undergone habitat improvements throughout the years. Some of them were at least 10 years old and it was always obvious when we came upon one because there would be an explosion of fish in the water. Most structures were still working as intended and a good number were providing some of the best habitat on the stream.
All the I ones I remember seeing a few years back up in Cross Fork Creek were in bad shape and were not creating much good habitat. I was on a crew in the 1970s and we built a lot of them in Cross Fork. I could not even locate them.
 
All the I ones I remember seeing a few years back up in Cross Fork Creek were in bad shape and were not creating much good habitat. I was on a crew in the 1970s and we built a lot of them in Cross Fork. I could not even locate them.
A lot of them were pretty hard to spot and looked pretty natural but the ones on the smaller tributaries were pretty effective from what I saw.
 
I just looked, and the Pavia Sportsman's Club stocked 11,000 trout in Sections 3/4 (Section 2 is Class A). The state added another 4,900. Insane. Great TPH boost though.
While the topic of stocking Bob’s was a bit tangential to the primary topic, I nevertheless wonder whether you’re more upset by the first or second sentence. While you’re at it and if you know, is Pavia part of the PFBC Cooperative Nursery Program?
 
While the topic of stocking Bob’s was a bit tangential to the primary topic, I nevertheless wonder whether you’re more upset by the first or second sentence. While you’re at it and if you know, is Pavia part of the PFBC Cooperative Nursery Program?
I suppose it’s tangential to the issue of the habitat projects and what role, if any, they’ve played in the “apparent” (last survey was 2005 I believe and species composition wasn’t the goal) decline in brook trout in sections 2 & 3. However, I think that stocking, in conjunction with everything else, may also play a role. Death by a thousand cuts.

I’m upset by the whole mess Mike. That this club seems to have been given some kind of indirect ownership of what happens on a stream on public property due to nothing more than proximity of membership, that the state sponsors it (they are a co-op), that the state adds to the “problem” (in my opinion), that brook trout have certainly taken a back seat to everything else on this stream, that nobody wants to do follow up surveys to gauge the impact of construction projects, or examine the “apparent” species composition shift here, that this fairly small brook trout stream has been completely turned into a stocked trout stream with a strong wild brown trout population and a token remnant of the original ST population.

I vividly remember the first time I fished Bob’s creek. I think it was about 1989. I remember my dad parking on a high bank not far up monument road from 869. I remember that the only fish I caught were brook trout and they were on crude dry flies. I remember being blown away that I was catching brook trout in what I perceived as a fairly large stream for a brook trout stream. All I knew back then about brook trout was from the relatively tiny streams right by my house.

I admit that when I moved away for college I didn’t fish it for quite a while except for one time a buddy and I stopped there on our way back from steelhead fishing. What it is today is a travesty as far as I’m concerned. Sure there are big stocked trout now, some big wild browns occasionally, and the wild brook trout have been replaced by wild browns. None of that due to some industrial expansion, pollution, impervious surfaces, loss of forest cover, acid rain, amd or anything of the sort. The only thing that changed is unbridled stocking and a whole lot of backhoes, logs and rebar.

The worst is I really don’t think anyone cares. Or maybe a handful do while the majority excuse it, defend it, or prefer it.
 
I suppose it’s tangential to the issue of the habitat projects and what role, if any, they’ve played in the “apparent” (last survey was 2005 I believe and species composition wasn’t the goal) decline in brook trout in sections 2 & 3. However, I think that stocking, in conjunction with everything else, may also play a role. Death by a thousand cuts.

I’m upset by the whole mess Mike. That this club seems to have been given some kind of indirect ownership of what happens on a stream on public property due to nothing more than proximity of membership, that the state sponsors it (they are a co-op), that the state adds to the “problem” (in my opinion), that brook trout have certainly taken a back seat to everything else on this stream, that nobody wants to do follow up surveys to gauge the impact of construction projects, or examine the “apparent” species composition shift here, that this fairly small brook trout stream has been completely turned into a stocked trout stream with a strong wild brown trout population and a token remnant of the original ST population.

I vividly remember the first time I fished Bob’s creek. I think it was about 1989. I remember my dad parking on a high bank not far up monument road from 869. I remember that the only fish I caught were brook trout and they were on crude dry flies. I remember being blown away that I was catching brook trout in what I perceived as a fairly large stream for a brook trout stream. All I knew back then about brook trout was from the relatively tiny streams right by my house.

I admit that when I moved away for college I didn’t fish it for quite a while except for one time a buddy and I stopped there on our way back from steelhead fishing. What it is today is a travesty as far as I’m concerned. Sure there are big stocked trout now, some big wild browns occasionally, and the wild brook trout have been replaced by wild browns. None of that due to some industrial expansion, pollution, impervious surfaces, loss of forest cover, acid rain, amd or anything of the sort. The only thing that changed is unbridled stocking and a whole lot of backhoes, logs and rebar.

The worst is I really don’t think anyone cares. Or maybe a handful do while the majority excuse it, defend it, or prefer it.
If the AFM or his staff did the survey, in my experience species composition would have almost always been recorded and trout in the catch would have almost always been enumerated by species and 25 mm length groups.

I would be very surprised to see state stocking rates adjusted downward solely in response to Cooperative Nursery stocking numbers unless something has changed in recent yrs.
 
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If the AFM or his staff did the survey, in my experience species composition would have almost always been recorded and trout in the catch would have almost always been enumerated by species and 25 mm length groups.

I would be very surprised to see state stocking rates adjusted downward solely in response to Cooperative Nursery stocking numbers unless something has changed in recent yrs.
I had to look up what he said.
Unfortunately, and due to infrequent sampling, we do not have adequate time-series catch data quantifying trout community composition on either stream.
 
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