Guide licensing info

[poopdeck]

OldLefty wrote:
poopdeck, if you consider so many expenses - legitimate expenses, I might add - "a wash," then you are saying they are so for all self-employed folks since a guide is self-employed. When you place that in proper perspective it seems you are at odds with anyone who is self-employed.

If you don't want to accept that guiding is a legitimate business, so be it. That's your prerogative to do so. I have no idea what is your vocation and I don't care to know. I'm sure that someone out there may have some choice things to say if you were to reveal such to us.

At least I can be confident in believing that you won't bother any of us guides by "wasting" money and hiring one of us for time on the stream.

Sorry old lefty I did not want to ignore you. Nope not at all at odds with the self employed. Just pointing out that everybody drives to work no matter who they work for, self employed or not.

Never said guiding is not a legitimate business and I'm not sure how you inferred that. To be clear I said you are not going to earn a living by being a trout guide and guide only in PA.

Yes I will not be wasting my money on a guided pa trout fishing trip. Sorry if that upsets you. That's not saying I'm rooting for you to go belly up. Fact is I'm an advocate of the self employed. My wife has been self employed for 25 years. This makes me intimately aware of her expenses and write offs. Like anybody who operates out of a home office, most of these expenses, other then a website and extra phone line, we would have if she did not have a home office much like a fishermen who guides.

I wish you well in you business and hope you enjoy all the riches you desire.

 

[PatrickC]

poopdeck wrote:

Yes I will not be wasting my money on a guided pa trout fishing trip. Sorry if that upsets you.

That is precisely why you are getting pushback. While it's fine that you feel you don't have a need for a guide, you are in fact also saying it's a waste of money to use a guide in PA. What guide wouldn't take offense to that?

Our services are not a waste of money just because you do not see the value. The point is, we offer a very valuable service for many people. Just because you don't need that service does not mean our service is a waste of money. Your delivery is poor when you make statements of that nature. Just because you personally don't need something doesn't make it a waste. Had you simply made your point without calling our services a waste, none of use would have disagreed with your thoughts.

And, as you have the right to make statements to the effect that we offer services that are a waste...we have the right to call BS. Just be clear on what the pushback is for. It's not because you don't need our service. It's because your words infer we don't offer a legitimate service (whether that was your intent or not...that is the tone of your comment).

We, my friend, offer very legitimate service to a broad variety of folks. And the service we offer is not a waste of money.

 

[NickR]

Who needs a guide right?

"Do you guys know where I can fish on ___________ Creek/River? Not looking for anybody's honey hole or anything just general locations and GPS coordinates."

 

[RLeep2]

A couple of quick, non-partisan observations:

- At the rate rhetorical straw men are being constructed here, I think it would be wise to make this thread a No Smoking zone. Disaster is only an errant ember away... Again, a non-partisan observation..

- I am not against guiding, per se. I see it as a legitimate and honorable way to, at the least, augment an income. I'd be the hypocrite of hypocrites to disapprove of folks making money off this sport. To a modest extent, I've done it myself through writing, presentations and even guiding on an occasional basis.

Still... I'm uneasy with the explosive proliferation of guides and guiding businesses in Pennsylvania over the past 20 or so years. I don't think this level of intense commoditization is at all good for the future of the sport. It, IMO, increases the pressure for (as well as the likelihood of..) additional privatization of Pennsylvania streams. It also raises potentially serious conflicts, in my view, about the use of public resources for private gain. This is Pennsylvania, not Alaska. Quality flowing waters fisheries are much more finite here. We could find ourselves at the point where, as Lincoln put it, there are "too many pigs for the teats".

I have other reservations, but they are of a much more personal, attitudinal or philosophical nature. As such, I cannot defend them other than to say that they are what I believe. I dislike the entire instant gratification/"reduced to a capsule we can swallow" pressure that (IMO) that runs on the engine of the technology revolution and has come to permeate so much of our culture over the past quarter century-plus. I particularly dislike it in regards to fishing. I think achieving success as an angler should follow the same step-by-step process as becoming proficient on the guitar or high detail woodcarving. Earned and learned, not purchased, lest the real value be lost. Over commoditization is a threat to this value and to our sport.

There's more, but that's enough out of me for now. I have to help my wife plan this year's family Thanksgiving dinner, which we are hosting. This may be the last traditional family Thanksgiving for us. By next year, who knows? The entire thing may have been degraded to the point where we decide to stay put where we live, get together by Skype and at a pre-determined time, all turn on our turkey-cranberry-stuffing-pumpkin pie infusion IV's simultaneously.

I hope I'll still be able to fall asleep in the recliner once we're done....

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Hey. This is America. You can charge whatever the heck you want for your services. The market will let you know if you're an overpriced windbag or not. I don't think any guide on here has to justify to a minority what they're charging. If people think it's too expensive, they'll go to a cheaper guide. If that guide can't provide his fees worth of service, they'll go back to the more "expensive" dude.

And who cares how much of that price is profit? You know the whole purpose of starting a business is to make a profit, right?

 

[NickR]

Plenty of reasons to hire a guide in PA:

1. You cannot swim therefore you cannot fish alone and need a guide

2. You have narcolepsy and are prone to falling asleep while standing waist deep in water

3. You have difficulty wading

4. For the safety of not wading alone

5. If you want Cornish game hens

6. Is it really wise to fish with random strangers that you meet on the internet? Some would say it's not.

7. If you don't own a boat and would like to float a river or lake... can't believe that even needs to be pointed out.

8. If you don't own thousands of flies and specific gear tailored to a variety of situations... I mean you are welcome to go buy all of your own streamers, streamer rods, sink tips and maybe even a boat etc... or you could just let a guide handle all of the leg work and take you fishing. Depends on what you want?

9. If you want to learn something... there are guides I would hire just to learn new things. Wet flies, streamers, locations, nymphing, boating etc... I have hired guides because I understand the value of learning new things. I don't know everything nor do I pretend.

10. If you are in town on business and you don't want to carry all of your gear around with you.

11. You are an experienced angler and have a friend you'd like to introduce to fly fishing and don't feel like or aren't really qualified to teach how to fly fish. You prefer to spend your time actually fishing rather than untie your partners knots.

12. You want a guide to take you directly to the best fishing spots and to know exactly what is going to happen in terms of hatches, releases, etc... a guide is usually the best way to maximize your time on water you are unfamiliar with.

13. If you are in business and you want to take your associates or clients fly fishing.

I can think of a million different scenarios as to why someone would hire a guide in PA.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

along with strawmen dont forget irony!

 

[NickR]

Straw men? I see people responding to direct quotes. No need to try to make it personal... we are talking about people's livelihoods here. I can't recall the last time I sat around and discussed peoples choice of profession on the internet that I knew very little about.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

RLeep2 wrote:
Still... I'm uneasy with the explosive proliferation of guides and guiding businesses in Pennsylvania over the past 20 or so years. I don't think this level of intense commoditization is at all good for the future of the sport. It, IMO, increases the pressure for (as well as the likelihood of..) additional privatization of Pennsylvania streams. It also raises potentially serious conflicts, in my view, about the use of public resources for private gain. This is Pennsylvania, not Alaska. Quality flowing waters fisheries are much more finite here. We could find ourselves at the point where, as Lincoln put it, there are "too many pigs for the teats".

I'm with you here, brother. This a concern of mine too. It does get a bit ridiculous sometimes. I know it's just an attempt to make a livin' doing something you love, but it is becoming an oversaturated market. I figure the stand-outs will stand out, though, and the others will go under.

I like the guides that have a hook, so to speak. I won't drop names on here because they may not appreciate it, but one member of this forum is a relatively new guide. But his focus is casting instruction, and that's his real passion. With him, it seems its less about the actual fishing and more about making you a better and more efficient fisherman. Another forum member guides in the northern realms of this state, and he teaches traditional wet fly fishing. His clients will use cane rods and learn traditional fly fishing techniques. That's unique. That's different. If you're gonna be a guide, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO MAKE YOURSELF STAND OUT? Because otherwise, you're just gonna be another drip in an over-saturated rag.

 

[PatrickC]

It's not as saturated as you think. The proliferation is of guide websites. There are a handful of new guides that are actually working. That is not a putdown to any guide website. Simply stating that just because they exist doesn't mean they are busy.

It's a lot of hard work to gain a client base and you don't get it simply by hanging a shingle. While it may seem some guides are on the water part tme, it's a full time job to get to that point. Most folks don't have that kind of time to invest.

And, as you pointed out earlier. The market decides whom survives. If you offer a service people want at a reasonable rate....you work. If you don't, regardless of your price, you don't work. It's still based on the quality of services you offer.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

my response was to Rleep2 who makes great points.

 

[DGC]

I have seen some of the sports being guided on some of our larger wild trout waters, and believe me, they NEED the guide. That is not a knock against those sports--they simply don't know what they are doing or how to best approach things. Nor do they appreciate the fine line between wading far enough and too far. A stream like the Lehigh or lower LJ must look intimidating if you don't know it, and if you lack experience, you could easily underestimate the potential dangers. In the absence of a friend who is more experienced to show you the ropes, a guide is a smart choice. NickR's list is apt and just the beginning. On the other hand.....

Really, you guys are going to argue about the choice of the word "waste"? I don't buy cable or satellite TV because I don't watch that much TV, so for me, cable would be a "waste." I suppose I now have to apologize to all the struggling cable installers in the audience for underappreciating them. If someone knows something about fishing then I can easily see how they would consider hiring a guide a "waste." So what.

 

[SkyBlue]

Sasquatch, Some guides tell you where to go fish and do not expect anything in return...

 

[The_Sasquatch]

SkyBlue wrote:
Sasquatch, Some guides tell you where to go fish and do not expect anything in return...

Yup. There is a charity to some guides, and no one has pointed that out in this thread either. And that's why, if I were looking to do a float trip on say, the Lehigh or something, I would start with those "some" before looking elsewhere!

Actually, you did ask for something in return-a stream report posted so that attention to an often-neglected/suffering stream could be raised in hopes that others would see the value in that particular watershed. Which also highlights a concern for the care and stability of the stream. The concern for stability and health in cold water streams is something, I would hope, that anyone in fly fishing, but especially the "pros" would share.

 

[CRB]

homewaters is a good outfit to guide for year round income from what I have been told.

 

[PatrickC]

CRB wrote:
homewaters is a good outfit to guide for year round income from what I have been told.

That was funny.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

hahaha!

 

[dano]

RLeep2 wrote:

I dislike the entire instant gratification/"reduced to a capsule we can swallow" pressure that (IMO) that runs on the engine of the technology revolution and has come to permeate so much of our culture over the past quarter century-plus. I particularly dislike it in regards to fishing. I think achieving success as an angler should follow the same step-by-step process as becoming proficient on the guitar or high detail woodcarving. Earned and learned, not purchased, lest the real value be lost. Over commoditization is a threat to this value and to our sport.

Can I have an Amen?

 

[CRB]

as a guide make sure you place a few pieces of dog food in your guide box :-o

 

[krayfish2]

Wow, this thread gait almost as heated and divisive as the 'rogue guide' thread.

Ok, some don't feel guiding in PA is necessary, some feel here are too many guides, some think guides are actually a good idea and so on.

If I post something that might be offensive or demeaning to those in the guide industry and get woodpiled on, duh. You are entitled to your opinion and the guides are entitled to theirs. If I were guiding, didn't want to build my own clientnd base and wanted a place where steady income .....homewaters club would be an option. It would mean selling my soul and generally against my 'fishing beliefs'. What's the difference if I guide for Coz who is buying up as many access points as possible? I believe the goal is to make you have to hire him or join his double haul club. Is it smart business? Some may say yes but I say it's a good way to have 95% of the anglers / guides hate you.

When looking at the guide reactions, it seemed to have really struck a nerve. A few of the reactions may have been a little over the top but I think that's because it was taken personally. The offensive post was just a hamfisted effort to express their opinion (which they are entitled to now matter how ignorant it is).

Are guides 'fishing gods'? Nah. Do they donate time? Yep. Do they donate gear? Yep. Do they donate free trips? Sure enough. Next TU meeting you go to where they give away 12 killer streamer patterns of a guided trip, you may want to fins the name of the guide and thank them for participating / showing interest in your chapter.

There's a lot more that goes into a guides day than counting the $400 you pay them. It is a service and the guys that are good can make a living. In PA, they would have to mix wade and float trips for trout, bass, carp, etc. It may also involve mixing in striper and steelhead tips. Believe it or not, there's a NY guide that is quite busy. Actually, there's a few but the one I'm talking about is Capt Adrian. By the end of the Somerset show, he'll pretty much be booked solid from April 1 through July. He's no spring chicken and he does 2 trips a day all spring. He's there going hard for 16+ hours a day. He does quite well. Call Joe D and try to book.....it's tough because he's full.....all the time.

Taking a guide once in your fishing life is something everyone should try. Maybe you'll learn something new, maybe you'll get your casting stroke fixed, maybe you get to new water you've wanted to see for years or maybe you have a great day with all of the above happening.

Now everybody kiss and make up.