S
SteveG
Member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2014
- Messages
- 980
For a good guide, I think $400 for a whole day trip is a good value. It's not all profit for them.
P
poopdeck
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2013
- Messages
- 2,420
Just mostly all profit. Problem is you are not going to be working much in pa at 400 a day. Fact is your not going to be working much in PA at half of that.
M
moon1284
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,571
I'm not sure about the profitability but since the streams in pa are generally easily waded and accessible I agree with pd that it's a tough gig to have clients every day. The delaware is an exception and I'm sure there are a couple more. I'm also not sure that guides would see a huge jump in bookings of their prices were slashed in half.
krayfish2
Well-known member
Agree. The only places guides are needed are on the waters with limited access, waters that baffle the average angler or waters that require a boat. Aren't many of those around PA.
With that said, I do think a lot of guys would benefit from hiring a guide at least once.
With that said, I do think a lot of guys would benefit from hiring a guide at least once.
JG63
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2013
- Messages
- 637
I was part of an established shop (anyone remember Shelly's in New Cumberland?) and established the Scientific Anglers Mastery Program of instruction there circa 1992/93. Guiding was a part of that program and I had several gigs per season on our local waters and wading on the Susquehanna. That was a good time for sure. Lefty endorsed Bob Clouser's Deep Minnow in Flyfisherman and the rest is history. I didn't get rich doing it but provided a good service to get newbies on to fish. It was all good for the store until big box mania took over our dealership programs. I guess with the advent of the Internet and hotspotting and Uoutube how to videos everywhere, I suppose that the old methods are outdated. I still have trouble paying full price for equipment though 
O
OldLefty
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2007
- Messages
- 686
O.K., I can't just sit back and lurk on this thread any longer. The comments are all over the place here; so, please let me respond to some of them.
First, I believe the licensing requirement is good for the industry. It establishes that a guide as least has a sense of being liable for his/her conduct while guiding and also has some knowledge of what to do in case of an emergency.
I know about this first-hand after having a client experience a brain bleed while standing waist deep in a stream. This isn't a pleasant experience both for a client or guide. I'll guarantee you that someone in the family at least considered the issue of liability shortly after the fact.
I will say, too, that the minimum requirement for liability coverage is woefully inadequate to protect a guide's investment. The greater the coverage the greater the cost, obviously; but, the greater cost is well worth it in the long run.
A guide isn't/should not think they're paid just to take a client fishing. Anyone who believes this or conducts themselves as such is an embarrassment to the industry. I'll be very frank and say that if I observe a guide fishing at the same time the client is fishing I confront them. If I had a guide who did so I would explain rather emphatically that there would be no pay for the day and we'd be done right then and there. One of the guide's responsibilities is to get the client into fish, not catch fish the guide should be helping the client to catch.
A guide is also a tactful instructor, always striving to provide input to the client which should increase the client's proficiency to be successful not only now but also in their future efforts no matter where they may fish. It also requires the guide be able to "read" the client to determine the best approach to get the job done. It's not "one size fits all."
While some have indicated that there's no need for a guide on the vast majority of PA's waters you may want to try to put yourself in someone else's place - consider the issue of hiring a guide from another perspective. Once you speak with someone who utilizes guides frequently and have them enlighten you as to their reasons for hiring a guide you may see things differently.
I've been guiding for more years than some guides are old and I can tell you that folks are hanging shingles out all over the place. Those who tout themselves/advertise and promote their business most usually get the most business. I've seen my business fall off in the last several years because I've not yelled "Here I am!" for a while: my fault, through and through.
I believe there are few guides in PA who earn a respectable wage. In order to do so it takes a sound strategy/business plan and I really wonder how many drive their business as such.
Oh, and when we consider our profit, please be aware that a guide sinks a fair amount into every guide trip.
Guiding is not a "peaches and cream" job, it's a lot of hard work for someone who takes it seriously. It's not a way to fish more: it's a way to help others fish better.
First, I believe the licensing requirement is good for the industry. It establishes that a guide as least has a sense of being liable for his/her conduct while guiding and also has some knowledge of what to do in case of an emergency.
I know about this first-hand after having a client experience a brain bleed while standing waist deep in a stream. This isn't a pleasant experience both for a client or guide. I'll guarantee you that someone in the family at least considered the issue of liability shortly after the fact.
I will say, too, that the minimum requirement for liability coverage is woefully inadequate to protect a guide's investment. The greater the coverage the greater the cost, obviously; but, the greater cost is well worth it in the long run.
A guide isn't/should not think they're paid just to take a client fishing. Anyone who believes this or conducts themselves as such is an embarrassment to the industry. I'll be very frank and say that if I observe a guide fishing at the same time the client is fishing I confront them. If I had a guide who did so I would explain rather emphatically that there would be no pay for the day and we'd be done right then and there. One of the guide's responsibilities is to get the client into fish, not catch fish the guide should be helping the client to catch.
A guide is also a tactful instructor, always striving to provide input to the client which should increase the client's proficiency to be successful not only now but also in their future efforts no matter where they may fish. It also requires the guide be able to "read" the client to determine the best approach to get the job done. It's not "one size fits all."
While some have indicated that there's no need for a guide on the vast majority of PA's waters you may want to try to put yourself in someone else's place - consider the issue of hiring a guide from another perspective. Once you speak with someone who utilizes guides frequently and have them enlighten you as to their reasons for hiring a guide you may see things differently.
I've been guiding for more years than some guides are old and I can tell you that folks are hanging shingles out all over the place. Those who tout themselves/advertise and promote their business most usually get the most business. I've seen my business fall off in the last several years because I've not yelled "Here I am!" for a while: my fault, through and through.
I believe there are few guides in PA who earn a respectable wage. In order to do so it takes a sound strategy/business plan and I really wonder how many drive their business as such.
Oh, and when we consider our profit, please be aware that a guide sinks a fair amount into every guide trip.
Guiding is not a "peaches and cream" job, it's a lot of hard work for someone who takes it seriously. It's not a way to fish more: it's a way to help others fish better.
D
DanL
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2014
- Messages
- 287
I hired a guide this year because I've never done it, and being in year 3 of my fly fishing career, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any of the obvious.
We met up around 8AM and because it was a tough day on Penns, he stayed with me until after dark because I was able to get a bunch of fish for the evening hatch to sort of "pay off" the work I put in all day with only a handful of fish.
He taught me some new techniques and new rigs and some stuff in general about Penns, and I wouldn't ask for my money back in a heartbeat. He probably also answered about 50 questions I had and it was constant dialogue, as if I'd known him for years.
It was also no boxed lunch. It truly was the gourmet lunch that he mentions on his website and I was impressed by what he and his wife put together for his guiding trips.
So for roughly 12 hours, when i basically only paid for 8 hours, my total was around $360 when I included the tip, so it was basically $30.00 an hour for him. With that he has to cover wear and tear on the car, health insurance hypothetically, and many other expenses that I probably can't think of, not to mention his wage.
For the record, that guide was Tom Doman of Penns Creek Guides, and he was pretty awesome! I think he posts here once in a while....
Just my 2 cents....
We met up around 8AM and because it was a tough day on Penns, he stayed with me until after dark because I was able to get a bunch of fish for the evening hatch to sort of "pay off" the work I put in all day with only a handful of fish.
He taught me some new techniques and new rigs and some stuff in general about Penns, and I wouldn't ask for my money back in a heartbeat. He probably also answered about 50 questions I had and it was constant dialogue, as if I'd known him for years.
It was also no boxed lunch. It truly was the gourmet lunch that he mentions on his website and I was impressed by what he and his wife put together for his guiding trips.
So for roughly 12 hours, when i basically only paid for 8 hours, my total was around $360 when I included the tip, so it was basically $30.00 an hour for him. With that he has to cover wear and tear on the car, health insurance hypothetically, and many other expenses that I probably can't think of, not to mention his wage.
For the record, that guide was Tom Doman of Penns Creek Guides, and he was pretty awesome! I think he posts here once in a while....
Just my 2 cents....
Swattie87
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,835
Well this just makes a career in FF guiding sound about as fun as a career in personal lines insurance claim adjusting supervision. Guess I'll just stick to that to pay for my fishing fun.
S
SteveG
Member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2014
- Messages
- 980
Poopdeck, you comment about "mostly all profit" is woefully wrong. Talk to anyone who is a small business owner, and ask them about business expenses. I have the utmost respect for anyone, anywhere, who can make s living being a guide. It takes more than just being able to teach people how to fish. There are many different aspects to excel at in order to be successful in business.
The_Sasquatch
Well-known member
Props to people who CAN do it (seems like a lot of people think they CAN, nowadays). I'm a bit like Swattie. My fear is that FFing will start feeling like work. But I do think in lines with many, a good guide seems to be priceless.
P
poopdeck
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2013
- Messages
- 2,420
Okay lets break it down then. I have no experience with guides or guiding but my pea brain figures it like this. Wear and tear and gas for the car don't count. I, along with most everybody else, drive to and from work every day and its not factored into my salary so that's a wash.
Gear? Guides fish (not talking about when they are actually working) and would have all the gear already even if they were not guides. Gears a wash.
How much for guide flys? 10 bucks, 15 bucks? Most guides tie their own right so this is an insignificant figure.
Lunch for the client, 20 bucks?
I realize there are insurance and license fees but that's spread across many clients. But lets just say you don't have many clients and assume that it costs 25 bucks per client for fees. So lets assume the total cost is 360.00 for an 8 hour day. Lets juice our expenses up to an even 75 bucks to cover our gas just for the hell of it. That's 35 bucks an hour. If he chooses to work past 8 hours that's great but also not uncommon for any working stiff.
Paying the taxman is a wash to since we all pay the tax man, the social security man, the insurance man and every other man out there.
So just what are the expenses that I'm not seeing?
I agree running a small business is work but so is going to work for somebody else. I would think guiding has far less overhead since a storefront is probably not needed nor is warehouse space or large computer servers, heavy equipment, work men's comp, and a host of other things that other small businesses deal with.
bikerfish
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 29, 2009
- Messages
- 3,639
What about the countless hours spent on researching streams? yeah, you could simply call it fishing, but I think it's a little more than that. how many hours does one have to put in to "learn" a certain water, learn it to the point where they can actually help a client?
I think it takes a lot of time, A LOT.
researching streams is much more than simply fishing. I'm sure folks that guide will agree with me.
just guessing here, but if a guide is charging 400 a day, I'm gonna say his take home pay might be around 200-250, which in this day and age, isn't bad, but he's not getting rich, especially considering he probably doesn't get a paying client every day, and fishing is a seasonal activity to begin with.
in other words, I would never want to do it, I'd rather keep my fishing fun and not turn it into work.
I disagree with your reasoning poopdeck, when self employed, everything you mention is an expense, so yes, gas is figured in, gear wears out and needs replaced, especially when newby's may be using it/breaking it. unpaid hours doing paperwork for the business, etc.
When your self employed, you're NEVER away from work, it's ALWAYS on your mind, you don't get to punch out at 5 and forget about it, it's ALWAYS hanging over your head. EVERYTHING becomes your responsibility, you can't hide behind the protection of a company. Until you do it, you will never understand what it takes.
I think it takes a lot of time, A LOT.
researching streams is much more than simply fishing. I'm sure folks that guide will agree with me.
just guessing here, but if a guide is charging 400 a day, I'm gonna say his take home pay might be around 200-250, which in this day and age, isn't bad, but he's not getting rich, especially considering he probably doesn't get a paying client every day, and fishing is a seasonal activity to begin with.
in other words, I would never want to do it, I'd rather keep my fishing fun and not turn it into work.
I disagree with your reasoning poopdeck, when self employed, everything you mention is an expense, so yes, gas is figured in, gear wears out and needs replaced, especially when newby's may be using it/breaking it. unpaid hours doing paperwork for the business, etc.
When your self employed, you're NEVER away from work, it's ALWAYS on your mind, you don't get to punch out at 5 and forget about it, it's ALWAYS hanging over your head. EVERYTHING becomes your responsibility, you can't hide behind the protection of a company. Until you do it, you will never understand what it takes.
SkyBlue
Member
I need to add my two cents also. One major expense you are overlooking is advertising. Website cost, cost to be at show, time to be at shows. Just saying you are a guide does not work. It takes years to build a business. Depending how big you get you will need an accountant, investment in a computer and a projector for presentations, donations to TU chapters for fundrising events just to name a few more expenses. So after years of doing this I think I made on average $2.67 per hour.
krayfish2
Well-known member
PD,
Lets say I'm a guide that does mostly boat trips. The main parts of my season run from April 15 to June 15 and again from September 10 to October 10. Before I shove off for the first trip of h season, I'm in $2000 for licenses and insurance. Over the winter, I had to pick up 4 'loaner' pairs of waders, 4 rod / reel combos for those that don't have gear......no, they aren't using my new Scott Radian. Add in another $1200-$2000 spent prior to the first trip year.
I now meet you for a trip. Drive 90 minutes one way pulling a boat, I stop a the grocery store to pick up roasted game hen, potato salad, bread, cheese, gourmet chips, water, sodas....additional expense. I hook up with my shuttle driver.....$40 more out of my pocket. We then push off on a grand day of angling except that you are such a bad caster, that you couldn't catch a fish out of a hatchery raceway. You complain after 30 minutes "I thought this place had fish in it" Great, now there's only 9 more hours of your biitching and seizure like casting that I have to watch. Before lunch, you are kind enough to hook me in the face, neck, arm and hands over a dozen times. I offer casting advice to make your trip better and for my own safety. You refuse because you've fished all over the world and I just row a boat.
We reach the takeout...... I'm out 36 flies and 2 spools of tippet from constantly untangling the mess at the end of your line. The loaner gear I provided was treated with zero respect. Tore the waders which I'll have to fix tonight the tomorrows trip and you broke the tip on my nymphing rod. You rail on me for not catching fish, you were unhappy with lunch and not a nice person in general. Tip from you? Absolutely not.
I now drive 90 minutes back home questioning why I do this. I'd hope to get a repeat trip or referral business but it isn't likely that you will provide either.
This may not be the situation EVERY trip but it happens a lot more than you think. Now I have to go home and tie flies until 3am since you lost all of my stock. Up at 6am to do it again the next day.
I know at least a dozen guides and listening to the horror stories keeps me from getting my license.
Lets say I'm a guide that does mostly boat trips. The main parts of my season run from April 15 to June 15 and again from September 10 to October 10. Before I shove off for the first trip of h season, I'm in $2000 for licenses and insurance. Over the winter, I had to pick up 4 'loaner' pairs of waders, 4 rod / reel combos for those that don't have gear......no, they aren't using my new Scott Radian. Add in another $1200-$2000 spent prior to the first trip year.
I now meet you for a trip. Drive 90 minutes one way pulling a boat, I stop a the grocery store to pick up roasted game hen, potato salad, bread, cheese, gourmet chips, water, sodas....additional expense. I hook up with my shuttle driver.....$40 more out of my pocket. We then push off on a grand day of angling except that you are such a bad caster, that you couldn't catch a fish out of a hatchery raceway. You complain after 30 minutes "I thought this place had fish in it" Great, now there's only 9 more hours of your biitching and seizure like casting that I have to watch. Before lunch, you are kind enough to hook me in the face, neck, arm and hands over a dozen times. I offer casting advice to make your trip better and for my own safety. You refuse because you've fished all over the world and I just row a boat.
We reach the takeout...... I'm out 36 flies and 2 spools of tippet from constantly untangling the mess at the end of your line. The loaner gear I provided was treated with zero respect. Tore the waders which I'll have to fix tonight the tomorrows trip and you broke the tip on my nymphing rod. You rail on me for not catching fish, you were unhappy with lunch and not a nice person in general. Tip from you? Absolutely not.
I now drive 90 minutes back home questioning why I do this. I'd hope to get a repeat trip or referral business but it isn't likely that you will provide either.
This may not be the situation EVERY trip but it happens a lot more than you think. Now I have to go home and tie flies until 3am since you lost all of my stock. Up at 6am to do it again the next day.
I know at least a dozen guides and listening to the horror stories keeps me from getting my license.
T
tomitrout
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 1,539
Well, then thank you for your expert opinion on all things guide related..
Do you go out a buy a new quiver of rods every year? Rods to fish with yourself + loaners for your clients? Lots of guides are set up to rep for manufacturers, sure the pro-deal is sweet but they're often expected to showcase the latest and greatest offerings, not fish 5yr old beater sticks and reels. So that means a whole range of sticks every year, do you buy a new quiver every year? Not a wash.
Sure for one trip, but when you're covering an entire year's worth of hatches and need to be ready for any and all conditions on any given day, that's a lot of flies to have on hand, it's not just the flies you use that day...and tying your own still takes time. Time that could be spent fishing themselves or taking out another client.
Maybe out of pocket, but your guide still has to go pick it up before your day on the water or spend the evening before putting it together, more of their time you don't see as a client.
Sure, if you only count those 8hrs spent on the water as the only time he's 'working.' He still needs to clean the rig, pack your lunch, tie your flies, scout conditions, etc, etc to make that paltry 8hr workday a memorable experience so you'll come back again...
Yeah, and that all comes out of that $400. I see how much gets taken out of my check every week, so to say that his $400 fee is 'mostly profit' is laughable, I see profit as money that goes into my pocket, all those taxman types are grabbing their share before it even reaches my account.
You're not seeing, nor are you accounting for all of the behind the scenes work a guide does to make your day a success. A guide's day doesn't begin and end when you shake hands at the start and end of the day, they work hard in those off hours to insure the time you spend with them is a quality experience. Tying flies after a long day on the water, cleaning the rig, whether it's just your crumbs out of the passenger seat or washing the boat after the sun has set so it's fresh and ready for the next sport he puts in the seat, to watching the weather and keeping tabs on the waters they fish. These may not be 'expenses' on the ledger in your 8hr a day world, but it is time that they're putting in so that 8hr workday is a special one for you, client.
Guiding ain't easy and I'm glad there are plenty of guys out there willing make a go of it, they aren't getting rich, but if you're good you're going to do more than just make a 'supplemental retirement income' and can make a living out of it. Good guides are worth their weight in gold.
krayfish2
Well-known member
To make the experience better for the client, many guides lease private access. On smaller streams, a guide that does wade trips may lease one or two streams flowing through private property. The landowners know who will use it, get the piece of mind that it will be respected and not littered with worm containers. The guide gets relatively untouched water and no crowds to help enhance the experience for the client. This might be $500 - $1500 additional expense.
If it's a boat guide, they may lease 3 private launches costing $500+ per year. More hidden cost.
If it's a boat guide, they may lease 3 private launches costing $500+ per year. More hidden cost.
Coudersportguy
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 41
This is becoming way to complicated. Number 1 you probably can't make much of a living guiding in Pennsylvania. Number 2 if you want to make any money the west is were it's at. The last guiding job I had before moving back to Pennsylvania for a full time job offer you know a 9-5, was at Kirks Fly Shop in Estes Park Colorado in 2013. I called him told him where I guided the past two years he said come on out bring your Red Cross cards, and just like that I had work. Kirk runs 32 guides from his shop so I was low man on the guide pool, but Kirk kept me busy all season with 4, 6, and, 8 hour trips. He then toward the end of the season let me learn the llama pack in trips with experienced guides better money taking clients way up in the Rockies for 3 day to a week overnight trips. I was the grunt though making and breaking camp and cooking but I made money. The average week for me was $800.00 to 1200.00 remember this is tax free you are a 1099 self-employed guide working 7 days a week like Kirk said in Estes Park vacationers don't do weekends off There is also living I slept in tents my truck and when I had time I would search Craigslist on my phone and find rooms to rent around the area just to shower, and some people would make a nice dinner for you. But I did all this with just my truck my hobo lodging, and Red Cross cards Kirk supplied everything else. Remember to make money you have to be in an area the has people. If you ever been to Estes Park in the summer the place is crazy with tourists so Kirk is booked. Pennsylvania just doesn't have that kind of tourism.
wjkosmer
Member
@skyblue, krayfish, tomitrout, bikerfish
yes, thank you!
yes, thank you!
foxtrapper1972
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2012
- Messages
- 2,455
I've only recently hired guides for my son and I and my brother and I and it was well worth it. The info I got for a few hundred bucks a day was worth more than ANY college class I ever took. Think of it as education rather than just them showing you a bunch of fish on any given day. Both guides I used were top notch and worked hard to give us a good experience. And yes a ton of after hours preparation and maintenance has to happen. By the way I had to encourage them to get out a rod and fish. I got sick of them watching me fish and I learned just by watching them. There's no better way to get to know a stream/river that you are new to.
S
SteveG
Member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2014
- Messages
- 980
Everyone else covered what I was going to say about marketing and additional expenses. As far as guiding out west, yes tourist destinations are definitely an exception to what we're talking about. But I imagine they might have a limited season too. Fwiw, they're only 1099ing you so they don't need to mess with employee issues... That money is still taxable...
